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Old 12-19-2016, 02:54 AM   #11
Daigoro
 
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

I like the idea in theory, but in practice I suspect a game would bog down in everyone trying to hog the spotlight with greedy, lecherous, alcoholic or bad-tempered antics so they can score some CP.

Perhaps there's a limit per session- 1CP for a -5pt disad, gained by one disadvantageous act; up to 3CP for a -15pt disad, with 3 acts, or maybe one more serious act.

But of course, how do you rate chronic disads, such as poverty, low status or one-handedness?

And doesn't one of the Power-Ups books go into this sort of thing? What's the treatment there?
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Old 12-19-2016, 03:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
I like the idea in theory, but in practice I suspect a game would bog down in everyone trying to hog the spotlight with greedy, lecherous, alcoholic or bad-tempered antics so they can score some CP.

Perhaps there's a limit per session- 1CP for a -5pt disad, gained by one disadvantageous act; up to 3CP for a -15pt disad, with 3 acts, or maybe one more serious act.

But of course, how do you rate chronic disads, such as poverty, low status or one-handedness?

And doesn't one of the Power-Ups books go into this sort of thing? What's the treatment there?
If we go by FATE-like mechanics, then disad activation should only give points only when it truly hampers the character. E.g. if someone with Bad Temper annoys the Queen, but the Queen largely shrugs it off, there is no award; if someone with Bad Temper annoys the Queen, and the Queen banishes him from the Realm, that is award-worthy.

Still fuzzy with chronic disads, of course.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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But of course, how do you rate chronic disads, such as poverty, low status or one-handedness?
Simple. Don't change the way they work; just change the temporary disads.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

I don't know how FATE handles it, so I can't comment on that, but in Mutants and Masterminds disadvantages are worth 0 points up-front. When the GM creates a scene where a hindrance can come across the character, if the player acts through that trouble they get 1 Character Point. Alternatively, since everyone's playing heroes and sometimes even clumsy heroes stop tripping up, you could spend a character point to change the circumstances or bypass that hindrance (whether or not it was brought about by a chosen character flaw. Once my player spent a point to re-write the scene so a broken ceiling light fell and hit a guard on the head).

Of course, as others have mentioned, that doesn't quite cover the more passive disadvantages like colourblindness or One Arm which wouldn't hinder you most of the time but are there all the time. Perhaps divide disadvantages into "major" such as Low Pain Tolerance that have a significant impact on that scene and "minor" such as Bad Back that are always there but don't significantly impact that scene. The major could be worth a character point by acting through it, and the minor could be worth a Token point that could be used to alter the scene or circumstances or bypass a future (non-plot-required) trouble but wouldn't carry over from session to session.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

My problem with rules like this is that I find they tend to run counter to the goal of the players immersing themselves in their characters' mindsets. Your character isn't thinking "I'm dyslexic. What can I do to make sure I have to read something to obtain my goals?" YMMV about how relevant that goal is (to me it's one of the most important when roleplaying) but I actually find it tends to make the other goal of having relevant character flaws happen. I recently had a character of mine punch out a cop because he was a creep to my nephew's girlfriend. While he had bad temper, that was totally not required by my disadvantages but it felt right for the character, so I did it.

These sorts of rules can work for disadvantages that are disadvantages of passion: they can represent a temptation to indulge: in anger, lust, greed, etc, but they work a lot less well for most other disadvantages as with my dyslexia example above: they add incentives in that don't exist within the fiction.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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My problem with rules like this is that I find they tend to run counter to the goal of the players immersing themselves in their characters' mindsets. Your character isn't thinking "I'm dyslexic. What can I do to make sure I have to read something to obtain my goals?" YMMV about how relevant that goal is (to me it's one of the most important when roleplaying) but I actually find it tends to make the other goal of having relevant character flaws happen. I recently had a character of mine punch out a cop because he was a creep to my nephew's girlfriend. While he had bad temper, that was totally not required by my disadvantages but it felt right for the character, so I did it.

These sorts of rules can work for disadvantages that are disadvantages of passion: they can represent a temptation to indulge: in anger, lust, greed, etc, but they work a lot less well for most other disadvantages as with my dyslexia example above: they add incentives in that don't exist within the fiction.
They add incentives to the player to explore the consequences of those disads instead of trying to weasel out of them, not to the character. A character with Dyslexia is perfectly justified in trying to prefer voice interfaces where possible. However, that time when picking a voice input instead of a text input makes the character stand out and suffer some negative consequence (blowing cover, wasting time in a time-critical moment, looking stupid in front of a SO), the player gets a point of reward.
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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They add incentives to the player to explore the consequences of those disads instead of trying to weasel out of them, not to the character.
Yes -- but the player controls the character's actions. So in game, you can wind up with a character that -- despite knowing his own limitations and understanding the consequences -- deliberately keeps choosing do things that cause him significant, even life-threatening problems, and at the very least is always approaching problems with his weaknesses rather than his strengths. And all that for no evident in-character advantage, which makes the character's behavior seem rather odd.

You can define the character as someone that's just plain stubborn, full of "cussedness", and insists on doing things the hard way precisely because it's hard. Or perhaps it's a motivation for attempting to overcome his limitations or ignoring them rather than accepting them. But having the player chase contrary incentives can affect the portrayal of the character. The visible effects of this kind of reward system aren't confined only to the player or the meta level.

So as with most things, it take some care and thought if you care about the story, and not just mindlessly chasing the mechanical reward because that's what the game says gets you the most points. Narrative vs. gamist, in the classic categorization.

(It's really just a more modern version of the old D&D joke: "Why did you heroes kill all the women and children in the kobold village?" "Because they're not worth experience points alive.")
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:54 AM   #18
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
They add incentives to the player to explore the consequences of those disads instead of trying to weasel out of them, not to the character. A character with Dyslexia is perfectly justified in trying to prefer voice interfaces where possible. However, that time when picking a voice input instead of a text input makes the character stand out and suffer some negative consequence (blowing cover, wasting time in a time-critical moment, looking stupid in front of a SO), the player gets a point of reward.
The player controls the actions of the character, so things that incentives the player to have the character act out of character can be problematic.

It might very well be in character for the person with dyslexia to plan ahead so that such negative consequences almost never come up, but spending a lot of effort on things like that might not at all align with the incentives of the player who is instead rewarded when such problems occur.

Such a reward mechanic can work well when the disadvantage is something the character wants to come up (this might for example be the case for many Charitable characters), or at least when the character is not trying to avoid it. However it is not a very good solution when that is not the case.
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Old 12-21-2016, 09:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

I have had an idea.

Take the total points value of the players disadvantages.
Divide this number by 5.
Take this number of Doom points, like destiny points but for the GM.
Every time a player uses a disadvantage meaningfully reduce the number of Doom points appropriately.
In addition manipulating this Doom pool lets the GM reward and punish player behaviour.
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Yes -- but the player controls the character's actions. So in game, you can wind up with a character that -- despite knowing his own limitations and understanding the consequences -- deliberately keeps choosing do things that cause him significant, even life-threatening problems, and at the very least is always approaching problems with his weaknesses rather than his strengths. And all that for no evident in-character advantage, which makes the character's behavior seem rather odd.

You can define the character as someone that's just plain stubborn, full of "cussedness", and insists on doing things the hard way precisely because it's hard. Or perhaps it's a motivation for attempting to overcome his limitations or ignoring them rather than accepting them. But having the player chase contrary incentives can affect the portrayal of the character. The visible effects of this kind of reward system aren't confined only to the player or the meta level.

So as with most things, it take some care and thought if you care about the story, and not just mindlessly chasing the mechanical reward because that's what the game says gets you the most points. Narrative vs. gamist, in the classic categorization.

(It's really just a more modern version of the old D&D joke: "Why did you heroes kill all the women and children in the kobold village?" "Because they're not worth experience points alive.")
It's not the first and not the last case where the mechanically optimal course of action may not (or may!) align with the character's, um, in-character interests. The FATE-like incentives certainly may add to gaming difficulty in the form of requiring another aspect of firewalling, but (a) firewalling is considered a necessary skill for roleplayers anyway and (b) it is the cost of the benefits it provides to the game structure (most notably, not having to design all Disadvantages with the assumption that the player will be trying to weasel out of them 24/7).
It's generally a way to trade one problem for another. And I am not convinced that the new problem is worse than the old problem (and would like more research and practice to decide one way or another).

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The player controls the actions of the character, so things that incentives the player to have the character act out of character can be problematic.

It might very well be in character for the person with dyslexia to plan ahead so that such negative consequences almost never come up, but spending a lot of effort on things like that might not at all align with the incentives of the player who is instead rewarded when such problems occur.

Such a reward mechanic can work well when the disadvantage is something the character wants to come up (this might for example be the case for many Charitable characters), or at least when the character is not trying to avoid it. However it is not a very good solution when that is not the case.
Spending a lot of effort on mitigating a Disadvantage like that is still something that likely has a cost. As I mentioned, always arranging for a text-to-voice assistance is likely to require time, or effort, or money, or an increased memorability for onlookers, or something. If it carries some kind of cost, then that is the Disadvantage harming the PC, and should be rewarded as such. If having a disadvantage carries no costs whatsoever (e.g. a fear of oceans in a campaign set on Tatooine), then it shouldn't provide any mention-worthy amount of points.
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