Ceramic Low-Tech Armour

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Sindri

And no TL 5 rifles are high enough velocity?

Would TL5 ceramics yield a sufficiently high DR-to-thickness to make body armor worth it? If they did, why did it take 100 years or so for SAPI plates?

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Would TL5 ceramics yield a sufficiently high DR-to-thickness to make body armor worth it? If they did, why did it take 100 years or so for SAPI plates?

It doesn't matter. Anthony said

"There won't be any attacks before about TL 6 where ceramic armor is useful, regardless of when you can make high grade ceramics."

Now I don't know if TL 5 rifles are attacks against which ceramic armour is useful which is why I asked. TL 5 ceramics versus TL 5 rifles wasn't the point of discussion. TL anything below 6 versus high grade ceramics of whatever TL is required to make them was.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Sindri

It doesn't matter.

It does matter. GURPS TLs are where the mature technology is introduced (which for ceramic armor is late TL7).

Anthony said

"There won't be any attacks before about TL 6 where ceramic armor is useful, regardless of when you can make high grade ceramics."

I don't agree with that? If SAPI plates were possible in the US Civil War they would have been used.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It does matter. GURPS TLs are where the mature technology is introduced (which for ceramic armor is late TL7).

So what? The discussion was obviously in the context of split TL even if it such a scenario could not naturally develop.

Now I would be interested in hearing about how good TL 5 ceramics are and I've already asked if anyone knows anything about what the technological prerequisites are for high grade ceramics but they are totally irrelevant to the discussion with Anthony.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't agree with that? If SAPI plates were possible in the US Civil War they would have been used.

If modern steel inserts were possible in the civil war they would also have been used. Steel or fiber is preferable against the vast majority of low velocity hits.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Sindri

So what? The discussion was obviously in the context of split TL even if it such a scenario could not naturally develop.

Sure, in which case you could just use the stats for SAPI at TL1+7 or whatever. You seem to want something lower-tech than that.

I don't see how that puts you in disagreement with him.

I think "when you can make high grade ceramics" does matter. At least at TL5, when high-powered rifles become the dominant small-arm.

Originally Posted by Anthony

If modern steel inserts were possible in the civil war they would also have been used. Steel or fiber is preferable against the vast majority of low velocity hits.

Sure. TL8 armor wasn't possible at TL5. I'm not sure what we are even arguing about.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure, in which case you could just use the stats for SAPI at TL1+7 or whatever. You seem to want something lower-tech than that.

I want to see whatever can be pulled off realistically without requiring general technological increase so I can choose an appropriate level of development.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think "when you can make high grade ceramics" does matter. At least at TL5, when high-powered rifles become the dominant small-arm.

Yeah I figured it out after I posted and deleted that comment. I can put it back to make your reply make sense if you would prefer.

[Anthony]

As far as making high grade ceramics, the primary ceramics used in bulletproof armor are boron carbide (1899), silicon carbide (1893), and aluminum oxide (occurs naturally, but not in a ceramic form). None were in industrial use before TL 7, as far as I can tell (though all were synthetically produced in the 19th century, just not as convenient ceramics).

For low tech ceramics, your best bet is probably asbestos-reinforced clays, or you can just make cloth armor out of asbestos (yeah, nowadays we know that that's a bad idea, but we also know that lead water pipes are a bad idea).

[sir_pudding]

Since you want an armor construction that was so marginal in our world that it was never really used but with rarer metals becomes more viable, why not just give in worse DR/weight than metal armors, but higher DR (and also allow rigid construction) than cloth and leather.

Of course if metals are rare doesn't that include Asbestos (which has either Magnesium or Iron)?

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Since you want an armor construction that was so marginal in our world that it was never really used but with rarer metals becomes more viable, why not just give in worse DR/weight than metal armors, but higher DR (and also allow rigid construction) than cloth and leather.

Well I think ceramic armour would be cool but I don't have attachment to it's use. If it turns out that it's pretty much an alternative to stone without major unwanted side effects that's okay. If more attention spent on ceramics means better types leading to higher DRs that would be cool too.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Of course if metals are rare doesn't that include Asbestos (which has either Magnesium or Iron)?

It's mostly iron that is rarer.