[LT] Iron and Steel Armor

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Because there's another transition at the Curie point (770C = 1418 F) that's much more plausible than that. After all that's where iron gains its magical property of magnetic attraction.

What, you're saying that a temperature that is associated with a blatantly visible change of macroscopic state that anyone can see is less plausible as a boundary point than a temperature at which it becomes possible for iron to be magnetized? Who's going to be testing the magnetizability of molten iron at TL2-4?

In fact, I'd say that the natural question is, "Does it feel cold when I touch it?" In which case anything below 300 K will be "cold" and anything above 320 K will be "hot," more or less. The coldness of iron really comes from its high thermal conductivity. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by whswhs

What, you're saying that a temperature that is associated with a blatantly visible change of macroscopic state that anyone can see is less plausible as a boundary point than a temperature at which it becomes possible for iron to be magnetized?

Because magnetism is *obviously* a magical property, just like the ones cold iron is supposed to have.

Anyway, I don't think anybody before TL5 ever saw any molten iron either, you really can't obtain temperatures high enough to melt it outside a closed furnace. Well OK, I suppose some Chinese blast furnaces may be technically TL4, and it's not impossible somebody had a mica window or something, but....

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Because magnetism is *obviously* a magical property, just like the ones cold iron is supposed to have.

And it's one of the more obvious ways iron differs from other metals known to the ancients.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Because magnetism is *obviously* a magical property, just like the ones cold iron is supposed to have.

Yes, and iron at, say, 500°F can have it. Most people would not dream of calling that "cold iron." Especially not if they tried to pick it up.

By your own argument, it seems unlikely that most people would have encountered iron above the Curie transition temperature. So they wouldn't be likely to have a concept of hot=nonmagnetic iron. There's just iron, and iron is drawn to the lodestone.

Bill Stoddard

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"Obviously the word 'cold iron' is not well defined, and therefore you cannot take a disadvantage based on it. You can take a disadvantage based on the exact substances you have in mind; please tell me what those are."

I'm of the opinion that "cold iron" is just a poetic epithet for iron, like "the red blood poured on the ground" or "he drank the sweet wine" or "they faced bitter death." (Or "rosy-fingered Dawn," for the classical trope.) You can see it used that way in Kipling's ballad "Cold Iron": the prototype of cold iron was the nails driven through Christ's hands and feet, and the Roman army didn't use rare meteoric iron for that sort of job. All iron is cold iron. Then modern people who didn't grasp the nature of poetic language in an oral literary tradition started reading the older literature and making up bizarre theories about what the epithets meant.

But whether I'm right or wrong, the mere fact that there are opinions as divergent as mine and the "meteoric iron" theory shows that "cold iron" doesn't mean anything unequivocal and doesn't define a proper limitation. Time to make them be specific.

Bill Stoddard

In my D&D games 'cold iron' is actually meteoric iron. I often refer to it as 'star iron.'

In real world terms, I tend to agree with you 'Cold iron' is usually just a poetic description, and not a particular kind of iron/steel.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That's fine, but that's at the object level. The meta-level needs clarity. That is, the GM has to know exactly what the various weaknesses are!

They already did that:

One person means wrought iron, one person means cast iron, and a third means any iron!

[Rastur]

I still like the explanation from this one book (can't remember title) that the cold part of cold iron was actually a translation error of north
so 'north iron' was iron that pointed north (lodestone)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

So lots of desert fairies but few on mountain tops?

? It's not like mountain tops are made of iron. The issue isn't "iron" or "cold", but "cold iron" after all :) Mountain-tops, sub-arctic, arctic, and deserts (at night) will make iron weapons and armor hazardous, but even then a fae beastie could handle an iron item briefly by dumping it in hot water to warm it up

Originally Posted by whswhs

In fact, I'd say that the natural question is, "Does it feel cold when I touch it?" In which case anything below 300 K will be "cold" and anything above 320 K will be "hot," more or less. The coldness of iron really comes from its high thermal conductivity. . . .

That's waht I was thinking of with my 10C/0C definitions (10C for "cold to the touch", 0C for the "risk of frozen fingertips" coldness)

I mean, if you can get your tongue stuck to it, it's definitely cold enough to count as "cold" IMO - I think you can do that at 0C or possibly just a smidge under 0C but close enough for GURPS. But it's certainly "cool" to the touch at higher temperatures (although I'd quibble significantly with your 300K benchmark, and pick something lower than that.

[Lord Carnifex]

Then there's my interpretation that 'cold iron' is bog iron, especially since bog iron needs less smelting (so the iron is cold while in the bog, and doesn't need to be heated before being worked). Considering that bog iron was an interesting source of iron in Northern Europe, it makes a certain mythic sense that it interacts with the Sidhe and the Elfreich differently than smelted or pig iron.

[Fwibos]

I am the all powerful thread necromancer!

A friend is running a game where the tech level is a little Janky. It's tech level 4+1, essentially. In high tech, it says that steel doubles the DR for armor at Low-Tech's weight or keeps LT's DR at 50% less cost and weight.

Does that mean that Heavy Plate machined to specifications on with TL5 Steel really has DR 18?

Or do we follow TL4 advice and add a single point of DR?

I couldn't find the answer wilst searching this thread or others.