What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

[AlexanderHowl]

It is fine for a four-color supers genre games, the genre supports arms control, but it starts being a problem in more realistic genres. Abilities are expensive and technology is cheap. For example, by TL9, you can purchase the equivalent of 400 CP worth of abilities with 10 CP of Signature Gear (Powered Combat Armor and a Sniper Railgun).

Now, compare that to RPM, where the castor can improve the Powered Combat Armor and the Sniper Railgun. A doubling of damage and range is easy enough, and accuracy can be improved to +15. They can keep the armor power cell running forever, create ammunition by transforming rocks into ammo, and otherwise create massive problems for their opposition. What is more delightful though is that they can do it for their entire squad.

Of course, each magical system tends to align better with certain genres. RPM was made for urban fantasy, standard for hack and slash, Path/Book for secret magic, magic as powers for supers, etc.. For example, RPM would not really be suitable for hack and slash, as the buy in is too expensive and the ability to hang spells is too unbalancing, but it would be perfect for Buffy or Dresden.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The problem with powers as magic becomes even greater when you enter get to TL5+. DR and Innate Attacks start to become effectively more expensive as technology becomes more powerful. At TL4, DR 10 is awesome. At TL6, DR 10 is not worth the CP you spent on it, as rifles will tear through it without difficulty.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is fine for a four-color supers genre games, the genre supports arms control, but it starts being a problem in more realistic genres. Abilities are expensive and technology is cheap. For example, by TL9, you can purchase the equivalent of 400 CP worth of abilities with 10 CP of Signature Gear (Powered Combat Armor and a Sniper Railgun).

My (not simple) solution is to attack that problem head on. I have no issue with characters buying Signature Gear and 'buying off' gadget limitations if that is cheaper than buying the advantage directly. If it's a spell, then apply Magical to the entire contraption. I find it works perfectly for making robots, can't see it failing when using it for magic (or other powers).

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

My primary issue with the 'powers as magic' systems is that they usually represent a large investment of points compared to other magical systems without an equivalent increase in utility. For example, take two magical characters, one given 400 CP for IQ and Sorcery and one given 400 CP for IQ and RPM. The RPM mage can purchase IQ 20 [200], Magery 8 [85], Natural Caster 4 [60], Path Adept [40], and 15 CP to get Alchemy-21, Exorcism-22, Mental Strength-22, Occultism-23, Symbol Drawing-22, Thaumatology-21, and nine Paths at 21, and half of their utility is in their cinematic IQ. A Sorcerer must be much more careful in balancing IQ, Magery, Sorcery Pool, and Sorcery Abilities

IQ is barely relevant for the sorcerer, and indeed for many magic as powers systems. They also don't properly use magery, though they have a talent that doesn't matter nearly as much as magery does.

I do find myself very impatient with several aspects of sorcery. The central modular abilities advantage is both expensive and not terribly useful for that cost. I get why they stick an FP cost for every spell, but I find it terribly limiting, especially because costs 1 FP is one of the worst limitations in terms of points returned for utility given up. Statting up almost everything as an affliction is a touch annoying, but not nearly as egregious as the other two, and actually helps hold the exceptionally broad power together.

When I say "Magic as powers", I'm usually thinking of a stack of alternate abilities with a power modifier, skills instead of IQ or DX rolls, and the ability to perform stunts based on thaumatology skill. That sort of set-up can be extremely effective in combat times and ranges, and be so consistently and for long periods of time.

and will likely end up outclassed by the RPM character, especially if the RPM character has time to prepare.

This is true of most magic systems in gurps, especially when you add the caveat "time to prepare". RPM thrives on preparation time in a way few other magic systems do (book/path comes to mind, and gadgeteering if you count that). If the RPM mage and the sorcerer (or worse, a kinetomancer/illusionist) start at 3 paces with no warning, there are some very different dynamics, though that depends on what charms the RPM mage walks around with and how they've managed their charm usage.

But I agree that the RPM character may still "outclass" his "peers", and its by enough that I think its a problem. Just because a magic system is more powerful doesn't mean you should use it all of the time. Otherwise we'd all use realm magic without FP costs. (yes, thats an official option).

[AlexanderHowl]

Realm magic without FP is an option, but Realm magic is really expensive from a CP point of view even without a FP cost (its effects are still limited by the level of the effect, as is the casting time). I am not sure that, with 400 CP of IQ and magical traits, what would happen if a Realm magic w/o FP went up against a RPM mage. Heck, I am not sure what would happen if they went up against a standard mage.

Let us examine a standard mage with 400 CP in IQ and magical traits. They purchase IQ 20, Luck, Magery 3, and Magical Resistance 10 (Improved, +150%), for a total of 300 CP, leaving them with 100 CP for other magical traits. At that point, they are capable of mastering several colleges without major effort and, because of their high base skill, they can reduce spell cost by 2 FP per casting. With their Magical Resistance, they are also immune to the majority of spells, meaning that anyone who attempts to attack them directly with magic suffers a -10 penalty to skill. While a RPM mage will have better buffs and have conditional rituals, charms, and/or potions, it would really be difficult to say which mage would be better. I think that both would be better than the Realm mage (even w/o FP), just because the Realm mage must spend so many points purchasing the Realms.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I get why they stick an FP cost for every spell, but I find it terribly limiting, especially because costs 1 FP is one of the worst limitations in terms of points returned for utility given up.

Even setting aside the point cost problem having all spells cost FP is a huge in game cost. It's effectively telling the mage that any and all spells are Extra Effort (or more!), which absolutely flies in the face of casual spells/cantrips and in between the extremes.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Magical Resistance 10 (Improved, +150%)

Slight aside, I think Immunity to Magic is strictly better. For those same 30pts you decide whether or not you succeed resistance. (Note that it's not Static which does have downsides)

[AlexanderHowl]

I do not believe that Immunity is optional. Anyway, Magical Resistance (Improved) is allowed while Immunity to Magic is not for magic users.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not believe that Immunity is optional. Anyway, Magical Resistance (Improved) is allowed while Immunity to Magic is not for magic users.

I'm not sure where either of those interpretations are. Powers doesn't point out Resistant as not allowed to someone with that power source and it would fly in the face of how Resistant normally works if you are "immune" to the good stuff (just like it was pointed out to me that being immune to drugs shouldn't make you "immune" to 1-up mushrooms). Static is particularly not allowed and is far more encompassing than Resistant.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Realm magic without FP is an option, but Realm magic is really expensive from a CP point of view even without a FP cost (its effects are still limited by the level of the effect, as is the casting time). I am not sure that, with 400 CP of IQ and magical traits, what would happen if a Realm magic w/o FP went up against a RPM mage. Heck, I am not sure what would happen if they went up against a standard mage.

Let us examine a standard mage with 400 CP in IQ and magical traits. They purchase IQ 20, Luck, Magery 3, and Magical Resistance 10 (Improved, +150%), for a total of 300 CP, leaving them with 100 CP for other magical traits. At that point, they are capable of mastering several colleges without major effort and, because of their high base skill, they can reduce spell cost by 2 FP per casting. With their Magical Resistance, they are also immune to the majority of spells, meaning that anyone who attempts to attack them directly with magic suffers a -10 penalty to skill. While a RPM mage will have better buffs and have conditional rituals, charms, and/or potions, it would really be difficult to say which mage would be better. I think that both would be better than the Realm mage (even w/o FP), just because the Realm mage must spend so many points purchasing the Realms.

I don't think the Magic Resistance is a very useful thing to put in as part of the 'mage build'. Anyone could have it, not just mages, and it doesn't make a mage better at magic. Also, if a standard mage should have it in their 400CP budget, so should all the other types of mage. At that point all the mages are working costings on each other at -10, and resisting at +10, and the mage that can best cast spells that don't directly attack the opponent (and thus don't take the penalty and avoid the resistance check) will be the winner. With any sort of prep that's quite possibly the RPM mage, though a standard mage that bought a large ally group (for ceremonial castings) and the right spells might compete.

Also, unless you're confident you'll never need magical help from outside yourself you'll want that Magic Resistance to be Switchable (+10%) - it only costs 2 points, so why not?

[Taneli]

I'm considering having a variant of RPM in my next fantasy themed campaign, where:

• Instead of gathering for energy, you roll casting once, and you take a penalty to your casting skill equal to the final energy cost, divided by 10 and rounded down.
• Spells have a standard casting time and greater effects increase this.
• You can only improvise cantrips (spells that have an energy cost of less than 10) on the fly. Other spells must be learned from a source or invented using the invention rules**.
• To cast a spell you must either know it*, have a source available for it (essentially, a spellbook), or it is a cantrip you improvised.

* Learning a spell requires you to have a source for it that you can understand, and takes one full day of study, plus one day per greater effect that the spell has, and a skill roll for the correct path with a penalty equal to the spells nominal*** energy cost, divided by ten and rounded down, plus any penalties from bad translations, nonperfect language ability, slightly missing material, and so on, and any bonuses from good or excellent materials.

** This doesn't mean that spells are set in stone, you can still adjust spells effect for damage, range, duration, target, and so on, where applicable. So no turning a fireball spell into a fire storm spell, for instance.

*** Nominal energy cost refers to all the spells effects, but does not include cost for range, target, etc.

Oh, and spells can be improved as average techniques, or maybe as hard techniques for spells that have more than x greater effects, where I'm wondering on the value for x.

Oh, and Magery (This variant of RPM) adds to your skill with the paths.

I'm not yet sure on how to go with group magic, my current theory is that the helpers get to make relevant Path rolls to give a bonus to the main casters roll, but not sure.


Why?
This variant addresses my fears about standard RPM replacing everybody else and also winning all problems by just improvising a new spell. It also makes spell books more important than in the standard gurps magic, and removes something from the arbitrariness of the standard gurps magic by replacing the spell generation rules with the IMO better rules from RPM.

So yes, I think this might be the best magic system, but as I have not yet tested it, I don't know.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'm not sure where either of those interpretations are. Powers doesn't point out Resistant as not allowed to someone with that power source and it would fly in the face of how Resistant normally works if you are "immune" to the good stuff (just like it was pointed out to me that being immune to drugs shouldn't make you "immune" to 1-up mushrooms). Static is particularly not allowed and is far more encompassing than Resistant.

Magery does not allow for the development of Immunity (Magic) (Powers, p. 111) and specifically forbids in on Powers, p. 72 for magical systems that require the channeling of magical energy. If you want that type of defense, take Magical Resistance (Improved), which is allowed in RPM. In general, passive abilities are not switchable, and I would honestly require the Discretionary (+150%) modifier to have Immunity ignore non-hazardous effects (similar to Static). If you have Immunity to Poison, you cannot get drunk, high, or benefit from painkillers, because it is always on and always interfering with any potentially poisonous substance, so the same would apply to Immunity (Magic).