What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

[oneofmanynameless]

Generally my experience with magic systems in GURPS is that Magic as Powers can do literally anything you want exactly as you want it, and that other magic systems are grossly underpriced unless everyone is using them. If you've got one person using a magic system like the ones out of thaumatology and another person using powers the person with powers will always be behind in terms of both power and utility for any given CP value. And then it gets way worse when you start trying to have multiple different systems of magic in the same game.

I've heard all the arguments of how non-powers magic systems are heavily limited by fatigue/energy/tally costs, casting times, and skill/advantage buy ins. But you can apply comparable cast times and fatigue costs to powers, which I prefer to do anyway because I like resource and time management gameplay mechanics, as well a require skills and have talents (like with psionic powers), at which point you're basically doing the exact same thing as magic systems but paying an appropriately greater quantity of points for what you can do and you've got a built in system for building new spells.

So generally I, as a GM, either allow powers or use a magic system like RPM, the basic magic system and it's multitude of variants, Path/Book magic, etc. And also, since I'm not really worried about my players having hundreds of points in powers as long as I built those powers (according to the themes, ideas, etc that the player suggested) I just about always go for Powers, even if I want it to look like "magic".

[AlexanderHowl]

But that is not really a magical system, it is just abilities with the Magical (-10%) modifier. My solution is usually to make equivalents of RPM for other sources (Biological, Chi, Divine, etc.), so other types of supernatural character have equivalent capabilities without falling behind.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

But that is not really a magical system, it is just abilities with the Magical (-10%) modifier.

One of the biggest disadvantages of magic as powers is that it has little in the way of flavor.

One of the biggest advantages is that it can be given any flavor you want.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The question, again, is what rule anywhere tells you that a 12 energy Paut Talisman is a thing that can exist?.

What rule anywhere tells you that a 12 energy Paut Talisman is a thing that cannot exist?

GURPS is far more inclined in telling what you what you cannot/should not do rather than what you can do...even if it is obvious.

The best example of this is Recover Energy which expressly states "This spell does not function in low- or no-mana areas." and yet Sanctuary, which expressly states "is low-mana" goes on to state "the Recover Energy spell doesn’t work." <sarcasm>Thank you, Captain Obvious.</sarcasm>

Another example is Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills:

"If a wildcard and a Talent exist to cover the same skills, and the GM permits a character to have both, the Talent doesn’t improve skills covered by or defaulted to the wildcard." p. 10

"Talents: Talents including Magery, Power Investiture, and other advantages that improve magic spells rather than mundane skills – never benefit wildcards." p. 24

The reason for this is due to what "Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology pg 75 did:

"Wizards must purchase magical colleges as wildcard skills (see Wildcard Skills, p. B175). (...) Magery adds to college skills, and hence to spells – but this must be Magery of the correct type, if multiple varieties exist in the campaign.

Example: Thaumaticus-Z6G has IQ 15, Wildcard Magery 2, and 12 points in the Air College! skill. He therefore has Air College!-16, and can cast Purify Air at skill 16, Shape Air at 15, and Lightning at 14."

Contrast that with this:

Morgan Silvercloak has IQ 15, Magery 2, and 12 points (attribute-1) in the Air College! skill . He therefore has Air College!-14, and can cast Purify Air at skill 14, Shape Air at 14, and Lightning at 14.

See the difference?

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If you apply the batch rule to talisman crafting, you get a talisman that has the same effect as taking the entire batch of elixer. But why that rather than:
-You can't apply the batch rule to talisman crafting.
or
-If you batch craft talismans, you get a batch of talismans.

Again, GURPS will go out of its way to tell you when you cannot do something...even to the point of redundancy.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

My primary issue with the 'powers as magic' systems is that they usually represent a large investment of points compared to other magical systems without an equivalent increase in utility.... A Sorcerer must be much more careful in balancing IQ, Magery, Sorcery Pool, and Sorcery Abilities, and will likely end up outclassed by the RPM character, especially if the RPM character has time to prepare.

To me, that's a problem of other magic systems. I don't think a mage built on 150pts is anywhere close to other 150pt characters in how restricted they are. But a character who buys powers is as balanced as someone who buys powers (special or not!) on the same budget which may require Unusual Background. After using Magic for over a decade (between 3rd and 4th) I can confidently say that a point in a Magic wizard is better than a point elsewhere and gets better faster;

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Generally my experience with magic systems in GURPS is that Magic as Powers can do literally anything you want exactly as you want it, and that other magic systems are grossly underpriced unless everyone is using them.

This explains my thoughts perfectly.

Originally Posted by RyanW

One of the biggest advantages is that it can be given any flavor you want.

Yeah, I can't see that being a downside. You can flavor how you have a skill or even what it actually represents. You can do the same for any disadvantage, attribute, advantage, feature, etc. For Magic as Powers, a large part of this is in;
A) How the power modifier works, both in what makes the cost and the special effects
B) What spells are available; this can be a hard list, a soft list, GM approval on each one, or even just saying what you shouldn't do
C) How you learn the powers

If C works exactly like any other skill, even though they are powers, then you still get a feel of having to go to an academy or train under a wise wizard. B tells you how people see magic. A tells you how it works in play.

The actual problem with Magic as Powers is the unwritten list of spells... which is true in basically any magic system (Magic has a list which you have to decide how much you are using and is complicated to satisfyingly come up with new ones, most other systems seem fairly open-ended).

[AlexanderHowl]

The problem with powers as magic becomes even greater when you enter get to TL5+. DR and Innate Attacks start to become effectively more expensive as technology becomes more powerful. At TL4, DR 10 is awesome. At TL6, DR 10 is not worth the CP you spent on it, as rifles will tear through it without difficulty.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by maximara

What rule anywhere tells you that a 12 energy Paut Talisman is a thing that cannot exist?

GURPS is far more inclined in telling what you what you cannot/should not do rather than what you can do...even if it is obvious.

There's a literally infinite number of things one could hypothetically propose to do with a GURPS character, and an infinite number of those are both wildly out of line and nowhere specifically forbidden. The idea that you can presumptively do anything the rules don't specifically disallow is patently absurd, and I can't think that you really believe it.

(Does Campaigns even actually say that dead characters are unable to take actions? I'm not sure. I didn't find it in a quick scan, but I only was able to find it attested as a D&D Murphy.)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The problem with powers as magic becomes even greater when you enter get to TL5+. DR and Innate Attacks start to become effectively more expensive as technology becomes more powerful. At TL4, DR 10 is awesome. At TL6, DR 10 is not worth the CP you spent on it, as rifles will tear through it without difficulty.

Doesn't that apply to most magic systems, whether or not they're based on Powers?

Certainly Basic/GURPS Magic magic has a number of spells that look bad compared to a handgun.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

(Does Campaigns even actually say that dead characters are unable to take actions? I'm not sure. I didn't find it in a quick scan, but I only was able to find it attested as a D&D Murphy.)

Unkillable 3 shows that dead characters can take actions. :-)

I remember the D&D Murphy. IIRC the flavor text was "Stinks up the place though." :-)

IIRC the majority (if not all) GURPS Murphys come from Classic.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The problem with powers as magic becomes even greater when you enter get to TL5+. DR and Innate Attacks start to become effectively more expensive as technology becomes more powerful. At TL4, DR 10 is awesome. At TL6, DR 10 is not worth the CP you spent on it, as rifles will tear through it without difficulty.

Even below TL6 powers as magic come off as far weaker for the points spent compared to the standard Magic spells.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Doesn't that apply to most magic systems, whether or not they're based on Powers?

Certainly Basic/GURPS Magic magic has a number of spells that look bad compared to a handgun.

True. Technomancer had to create boosted versions of the missile/area spells because the "normal" ones sucked compared to guns and other high tech weaponry

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the reasons why I prefer RPM is that it is flexible enough that it can keep up with TL5+ equipment. Heck, it can easily make a gun better by changing its damage, accuracy, range, etc. For example, Lesser Strengthen Energy can double the damage and range of a pistol while Lesser Control Matter can add +5 to accuracy and damage. A .45 Colt could be made to deal 6d+1 pi+ damage, given an Acc 7, and have a range of 240/2,400.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by RyanW

One of the biggest disadvantages of magic as powers is that it has little in the way of flavor.

One of the biggest advantages is that it can be given any flavor you want.

I think it's not for people who want magic and to play quickly. But it's the right system if you want to homebrew your own magic system and are willing to take a lot of time to do it.