Spearmen: Not as good against Swordsmen as you might think

[AlexanderHowl]

Staff defaults to Spear-2, so it grants a net +1 to Parry (which is worth 1 CP).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Maz

Just wanted to post this video of some HEMA guys trying spears vs. swords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLLv8E2pWdk

Conclusion: spears are slightly better. But Shield+sword is even better (if the shield is used correctly).

And the best tactics for short range vs long range is simply rushing into CC range.

That's the Lindybeige one I think? (I don't have sound at work)

IIRC there's an important caveat to it which he points on his channel, the HEMA chaps are much more experienced with sword (with or without shield) than with spear (with or without shield*). Now that doesn't necessarily invalidate the points being made in abstract i.e. the sword has to get past the spear and into close range. But it is relevent for the practical results




*IIRC Spear and shield does really badly in the video as they all struggle to control the spear one handed? (when in small groups they also break formation v.quickly because they're used to one on one sword fights!)

[Tomsdad]

One thing that the video does show is with Sword and shield how often they used the shield to immobilise or keep the spear out of position to allow a follow up attack form the sword that was very hard for the spear wielders to defend against.

I'm guessing in RAW this would be a beat or a feint with the shield.

Likely with some points in 2 weapon combo "beat/feint with shield, stab with sword" if it was done quickly and you didn't want to spend a FP or lose defence doing a AoA(dbl). Although you could also set up a wait in order to beat then attack, is the spear wielder is being aggressive




I think you should be able to use shield to Bind weapon as well


as and aside I might be tempted to add the shield's DB to a beat QC, as a big shield is actually quite good for tying up, imposing itself between or otherwise keeping an opponent's weapon out of position unless they disengage, but it might be a bit over powered* (I might have to think of some kind balancing effect here)


*shields are good though!

[AlexanderHowl]

The same thing could be done with a shield/spear combo, though the problem with a shield beat are the penalties associated with doing it at the same time as an attack. I would suggest that it would be better done with a spear than a sword, as nearly every army in history trained with shield and spear (the Romans being the primary exception, as they used javelin to remove their opponents' shields).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'm guessing in RAW this would be a beat or a feint with the shield.

Using Fantastic Dungeon Grappling or Technical Grappling (FDG especially), we treat this as a "bind," a grapple that can be broken free of by simply stepping out of range, but which occupies and penalizes the limb or weapon and can be used for anything you can spend control points on. Increased defenses for you, reducing to-hit penalties, lowering a foe's defense roll, etc.

Our way isn't the only way, but I've trained very active "grappling" with the edge of the shield.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The same thing could be done with a shield/spear combo,

Yep, although you can step in with a shorter weapon while doing this (I'd probably let someone beat with their shield against a spear that had just attacked at the reach of the spear, to make this work with the rules).

So it would be beat, step and attack. It might work well as a committed attack to either keep a step to counter the spear man retreating (he's trying to keep distance), or to really get into his armpit*! You lose both parry and block and you're left with dodge at -2 as a defence but the spear man should be left either with a stab wound or out of position himself maybe trying to get his weapon ready at a new reach etc, etc



*all this depends on what kind of spear and sword we're talking about and what the relative difference in reach is.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

though the problem with a shield beat are the penalties associated with doing it at the same time as an attack.

True, as I say there's a couple of options here, a two handed combo, AoA with FP to keep the defence, wait (beat), attack.

TBH even if you do space it out over two actions, you can still block in between but you give your opponent a chance to move again.

(the down side to doing a dbl combo with a feint is that since you're not making two attacks you don't get the option to penalise your targets defence if they're relying on the same one. But since I rule I'd allow the beat to work at the spear's reach, that to me is worth it)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that it would be better done with a spear than a sword, as nearly every army in history trained with shield and spear (the Romans being the primary exception, as they used javelin to remove their opponents' shields).

True, although a lot of that was shield wall formations and that's a different context to this.

IIRC the HEMA chaps didn't do well with spear and shield but that was because they had little experience of trying to keep a spear moving one handed, they didn't do well maintaining a shield formation either when they did groups!

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Using Fantastic Dungeon Grappling or Technical Grappling (FDG especially), we treat this as a "bind," a grapple that can be broken free of by simply stepping out of range, but which occupies and penalizes the limb or weapon and can be used for anything you can spend control points on. Increased defenses for you, reducing to-hit penalties, lowering a foe's defense roll, etc.

Our way isn't the only way, but I've trained very active "grappling" with the edge of the shield.

Cool, I don't have FDG (should get that really), I've been allowing skill adaption perk to allow Shield users to use the bind weapon technique. But I like your point about being able to disengage from it.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*shields are good though!

This is flat out true. Almost anytime you go in weapon+shield versus just weapon, the shield guy has a strong advantage.

[AlexanderHowl]

Usually, though there are exceptions, as two-handed weapons tend to deal more damage. I would much rather have a shield and a fine spear than just a fine spear though. When facing shields though, pilum are a fine solution to the problem, especially if you use a spear thrower to improve the damage and distance. It is strange that the Romans never faced an army equipped with spear throwers, as they were prehistoric weapons found everywhere.

[Donny Brook]

Even a piece of field artillery couldn't stand up against my swordsman when he attacked from 5 yards away.