Spearmen: Not as good against Swordsmen as you might think

[da_Loof]

Hi everyone, I've been wargaming a scenario between a katana fighter and a longspear fighter, in a hopes to figure out if there's anything the katana fighter can do to reliably prevail over the longspearman's eye-watering reach. I'm sharing my conclusions here in case anybody finds them interesting.

What I discovered is this: the Swordsman is substiantially better-equipped to close in and deal with the Spearman than it initially seems.

While I've found nothing that a skilled swordsman can reliably do to prevent a skilled Spearman from making two opening attacks (or a feint-and-attack), if both fighters understand the if-thens of GURPS combat then this will prove less of an advantage than it seems because the Swordsman is free to stack the decks for this initial exchange in a way that the Spearman is not. Afterwards, the Swordsman can make an absolutely devastating attack on the Spearman. If the Spearman even survives this initial attack, the swordsman will still enjoy a lasting and distinct advantage until the Spearman dies, yields, or is permitted to flee (or gets lucky). Further, this is the best-case scenario for the Spearman--any deviation from this script, and the Swordsman has the means to punish them dearly for it.

Note:While I think this is interesting and want to share it with you, I don't consider this definitive and am definitely interested in getting community feedback on every part of this. I would love nothing more to hear about some tactic or response that I haven't considered.

The Breakdown:

Essentially, one of the surprising things I learned from this exercise, which really makes things doable for the swordsman, is that it's possible for the swordsman to control the flow of the battle by managing the distances.

Let me show you what I'm talking about. We all know that with a reach of (2,3*) the Longspearman owns range 3-4 when dueling the Swordsman (whose reach is 1-2). Holding their longspear at reach 3 (which I will be taking to be the default), they can attack / step and attack with total impunity.

Likewise, if the Swordsman uses a Defensive Grip, they own Close Combat. At Range C, even if the Spearman retreats from the swordsman's attack and then steps away as part of their own maneuver, they will still find themselves at range 2 - too close to effectively attack. Similarly for range 1: while if the swordsman were to attack from that range, a retreat+step would position the Spearman to attack at range 3. But if the swordsman just stood there (say, using all-out defense or evaluate) they will find themselves in relative safety, even as the Spearman is threatened.

What this means is that the Spearman must be very cautious if the longswordsman is one full move away from close combat or range 1--that is to say, if the Swordsman is at a range 7 or inwards. Unless they are comfortable with the swordsman just waltzing in and gutting them on their next turn, their options are either 1) attack and pray that it takes; 2) run away; or 3) wait to attack if he charges in. The swordsman has no such limitation and is free to do as they please. What this means is - surprisingly - from the ranges 5-7, the swordsman controls the battle!

You might be saying, "okay, but what good is that when the swordsman is so far away? What can they even do from out there?" Well as it turns out, lots. For one, the swordsman can evaluate but the Spearman can't. That's +3 right there. Or from range 5, the swordsman can feint* or attack the Spearman's weapon, which extends out to range 3. By stacking a decent feint plus their bonus from evaluate, the longswordsman has decent odds of unreadying the Spearman's weapon with a disarm attempt, giving them the opportunity to surge into close combat in safety. Or they could just hack at the weapon. It would likely take a few seconds of hacking. But the swordsman controls the pace of the fight from range 5, so that is potentially something they can afford to do.

So: from range 5, the swordsman can do whatever they want to the longspearman's weapon in relative safety, while the longspearman must either: 1.) continue to waiting to protect Hex 3, permitting the swordsman to disable their weapon eventually; 2.) run away; or 3.) make a sub-optimal attack (such as a committed attack to make 2 steps in > attack from range 3, or something else goofy such as an armed slam). Of these, the least terrible option is 3 (assuming your spearman isn't going to run away every time a swordsman walks at them).

So what this teaches is this: if the Spearman is smart, they won't Wait to attack the Swordsman from range 3. Instead, they will want to Wait to make a Committed Attack (Step>Step>attack) against the Swordsman who enters range 5. This is because only bad things will happen to them from that range and they must deny that engagement distance from the Swordsman.

Knowing this, the Swordsman probably want to Roll Body Language to figure out if the Spearman will attack if he enters range 5, and then use either use All-Out defense to enter Range 5 and trigger the attack, or to step in and make defensive attacks against the longspear itself until the Spearman is disarmed or (more likely) rushes in.

So all that being said: Given two experienced, skilled fighters (with Grip Mastery), who understand the relationship between the two weapons, this is how I see a fight playing out:

Note: As experienced veterans, both opponents will be playing conservatively, making committed attacks only if it's absolutely necessary to occupy a certain desirable range and avoiding All-Out Attacks like the plague--even when there are situations where their enemy's defense is compromised and they could probably end a fight by opting to All-Out Attack.

Spoiler:  

Fight begin!
Swordsman enters Range 6. Evaluates.
Spearman waits to attack if swordsman enters Range 5.

Swordsman evaluates.
Spearman waits to attack if swordsman enters Range 5.

Swordsman evaluates.
Spearman waits to attack if swordsman enters Range 5.

Swordsman assumes a Defensive Grip, All-Out Defends (dodge) and moves into Range 5.
Spearman's Wait triggers. He makes a Committed Attack (Determined), taking two steps in and attacking (or feinting, depending on the odds that an attack will hit) from Range 3. Swordsman Defends (with All-Out Defense), slipping to the side (but not backwards!) if dodging. Possible loss for Swordsman! If able, the Swordsman continues his move into Range 1.
Spearman (now on his regular turn) makes a second Committed Attack (step back>step back>attack) to attack from Range 3. Swordsman Defends (with All-Out Defense). This time they will retreat backwards and assume a Defensive Grip. Possible loss for Swordsman!

Returning to a normal two-handed grip, Swordsman makes a Committed Attack (Step>Step>Attack) to enter Range 1, and attacks with a +3 bonus from Evaluate (unless it was spent on a feint contest earlier). Additionally, the Spearman is at -2 to defend (only -1 for parry) and cannot Retreat because of Committed Attack. Possible loss for Spearman!
Spearman Steps backwards into Range 2 and readies his Spear to function at Range 2 (still Defensive Grip).

Swordsman half-swords and uses All-Out Defense (dodge) to enter the Spearman's hex.
Spearman uses Committed Attack (Step back > Step back > attack) to attack from Range 2. Swordsman defends (with Defensive Grip and All-Out Defense). Swordsman slips into Range 1. Possible loss for swordsman.

Swordsman steps into Close Combat, and attacks. The Spearman is at -2 to dodge, -14 to parry (-2 for committed attack -12 for a reach-3 weapon in close combat) and cannot retreat. Possible loss for spearman.
Spearman uses Committed attack (step back > step back > attack) to attack from Range 2. Swordsman defends as normally and slips into range 1.Possible loss for swordsman.

I consider this final position to be an equilibrium of sorts--all other things being equal, IMO each fighters' best option is to repeat this final turn until somebody gets hit. So I'll call the scenario here.

Looking at this, the thought-out fight between the Swordsman and the Spearman looks very similar to what you might expect if you were taking a more improvisational approach--but with certain considerations. While the Spearman has a greater quantity of opportunities to kill the Swordsman, closer inspection reveals that the Swordsman's opportunities are of higher quality. As you might expect, if the Swordsman is able to reliably weather two normal attacks going in under the best of circumstances, the fight is most likely his.

Still, I have to wonder if there are some techniques or tactics that I haven't considered. Thoughts?



*It's a little grey by RAW whether being able to reach a person's weapon enables you to feint against the person. From a realism standpoint I would personally recommend allowing it (perhaps at a -3 for hit location). One of the first things to happen when two spearmen duel is a sort of jockeying for superior positioning of their spears - sort of analogous to handfighting, if you're a grappler - even though neither of them are actually close enough to stab at each other. I would represent this in-game as the two feinting against each-others weapon.

[da_Loof]

Or the swordsman could just stand at range 6, hold his katana one-handed, and throw rocks at the spearman, forcing the spearman to move-and-attack or retreat :P

[ravenfish]

The first point I would make is that the longspear is really a formation weapon. You are right that a single adventurer suffers a disadvantage from being unable to attack adjacent foes (hence the existence of the regular spear, and of the duelling polearms in Low-Tech that convert reach 2,3 weapons into reach 1,2 weapons), but against a group, the charging swordsman must face readied attacks from the spearman he is moving against and continuing attacks from the ranks of spearman behind.


Consider also the Stop-Thrust (Basicp. 366). If the swordsman succesfully moves in to close with the spearman, he is indeed in an advantageous position, but if the spearman manages to hit him with a readied attack as he closes, the swordsman will take extra damage.


Your proposals of the swordsman hacking at the spear seems odd. If it comes down to it, the spearman can also be poking at the sword while this is going on, but the bigger point is, unless this is a one-on-one fight in an arena or something, this mostly amounts to the swordsman wasting his turn while the spearman can take his turn attacking someone else or doing something else that is actually useful. Moreover, if you allow the rule from Martial Arts that a "retreat" can be made in any direction (albeit at a penalty to the defense roll), the spearman can slip forward one yard when attacked, then step forward on his turn and make an attack against the opponent rather than the weapon. Alternatively, Committed Attacks, also from Martial Arts, allow the user to make two rather than one steps on his turn at the cost of reduced but not eliminated defenses.

[da_Loof]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

The first point I would make is that the longspear is really a formation weapon. You are right that a single adventurer suffers a disadvantage from being unable to attack adjacent foes (hence the existence of the regular spear, and of the duelling polearms in Low-Tech that convert reach 2,3 weapons into reach 1,2 weapons), but against a group, the charging swordsman must face readied attacks from the spearman he is moving against and continuing attacks from the ranks of spearman behind.

I'd say you're right that you wouldn't historically expect to see fighters running around armed only with longspears out of formation--or if they aren't trained cavaliers. When the samurai fought on foot with their yari or early knights with their proto-lances (both I would call longspears based on their length), they would certainly be expected to carry their side-arms - such as their katana or their sword - for that very reason! No doubt our spearman was wishing he'd brought his in this fight. But even if he had, unless he was just as good a swordsman as the Swordsman himself (in which case, why are we even doing this exercise?) I don't imagine he would be much better off against our Swordsman as he does in the example above.

Consider also the Stop-Thrust (Basicp. 366). If the swordsman succesfully moves in to close with the spearman, he is indeed in an advantageous position, but if the spearman manages to hit him with a readied attack as he closes, the swordsman will take extra damage.

The Stop-Thrust is interesting, but I would probably like it a lot more if it didn't specify that it was an All-Out Attack. I think that All-Out Attacks are generally a Bad Idea when you're dueling a skilled opponent--if they successfully defend, you're possibly looking at a Telegraphic All-Out attack in retaliation. Yikes! As it stands, i would probably only use Stop-Thrust if somebody were rushing you so headlong that they forgo their ability to defend, such as a charging berserker or a horse.

Your proposals of the swordsman hacking at the spear seems odd. If it comes down to it, the spearman can also be poking at the sword while this is going on,[...]

That would be fantastic news for the swordsman--if the spearman does anything but Wait to attack, the swordsman can simply take his next action to Move into range C without fear of reprisal! Also--if hacking to damage doesn't seem to make sense in a situation, the swordsman can still try disarm. Unlike a damaging attack, that has a chance to work on the first try, especially if they took the time to Evaluate!

[...]but the bigger point is, unless this is a one-on-one fight in an arena or something, this mostly amounts to the swordsman wasting his turn while the spearman can take his turn attacking someone else or doing something else that is actually useful.

Point taken. Mostly. As a matter of fact, I *was* imagining a one-on-fight in an arena! :)

That being said, I don't know if I would advise a spearman to turn their attention to anybody else with a swordsman harrying him like that, even in a small group. He might try to call his buddies over for help, but if he were to do anything but Wait to attack (or just attack as in the OP) I think the swordsman's next move would be to just run in and kill him.

Moreover, if you allow the rule from Martial Arts that a "retreat" can be made in any direction (albeit at a penalty to the defense roll), the spearman can slip forward one yard when attacked, then step forward on his turn and make an attack against the opponent rather than the weapon.

You make a good point that the Spearman could slip into range 4 if the swordsman were to attack the spear. On your suggestion, I'd like to expand my recommendation on what the swordsman should do if permitted to enter Range 5:

(From range 6)
Set-Up: Swordsman rolls Body Language to determine if the Spearman will charge upon his entering range 5.

If no:
Turn 1: Swordsman steps into range 5 and Feints against the spear (you cannot retreat from a feint)
Turn 2: Swordsman strikes the weapon (damage or disarm) and steps back into range 6. If the enemy slips forward, repeat.

If yes:
Turn 1: half-sword + full-defense (dodge) > Move into Square 5 (on your way to Square 3) as detailed in the OP.

Alternatively, Committed Attacks, also from Martial Arts, allow the user to make two rather than one steps on his turn at the cost of reduced but not eliminated defenses.

As detailed in the OP, I think that's probably the spearman's best bet. Both swordsman and spearman make good use of the two-step attack :)

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by da_Loof

I
The Stop-Thrust is interesting, but I would probably like it a lot more if it didn't specify that it was an All-Out Attack. I think that All-Out Attacks are generally a Bad Idea when you're dueling a skilled opponent--if they successfully defend, you're possibly looking at a Telegraphic All-Out attack in retaliation. Yikes! As it stands, i would probably only use Stop-Thrust for formation fighting, when you get 2 or three (or more!) pikemen making Stop-Thrusts against a large target like a horse.

My copy of Basic says, under Stop Thrust "You can convert your Wait into an Attack or All-Out Attack." I agree that, if it did require an AoA, it would be a rather bad idea.

[da_Loof]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

My copy of Basic says, under Stop Thrust "You can convert your Wait into an Attack or All-Out Attack." I agree that, if it did require an AoA, it would be a rather bad idea.

Oh you know what? You're absolutely right. I misrembered. Thanks for pointing that out--Stop Thrust it is!

[AlexanderHowl]

Quite honestly, swords are not significantly better than spears, they were more status symbols than anything else. A primary advantage of spears though is that they are cheap and easy to replace. A warrior can purchase a fine spear ($120; thrust+3/thrust+4 damage; -1 breakage) for less than the cost of a cheap shortsword ($160; thrust/swing damage; +2 breakage). A ST 14 warrior is better off with a fine spear than a cheap shortsword (1d+3/2d impaling damage for the fine spear versus 1d impaling/2d cutting for the cheap shortsword).

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by da_Loof

When the samurai fought on foot with their yari or early knights with their proto-lances (both I would call longspears based on their length), they would certainly be expected to carry their side-arms - such as their katana or their sword - for that very reason!

Spears are fine against swords, when you bring the correct spear.

A longspear is a formation or defensible position weapon, not a 'flat featureless plane' weapon.

I mean we could all sit here complaining that broadswords don't compare favorably to short swords once you get into close combat, but that's not a particularly good comparison either.

[Rupert]

Note that the choice of sword matters here, too. The OP's example is using a clumsy spear with a large 'dead space' (C,1) vs a sword with a reach of 1,2.

Also, many GMs might well let a spearman holding a Wait Evaluate the same way that someone waiting with a gun aimed at a doorway can Aim. That removes the swordsman's advantage there.

[Maz]

Just wanted to post this video of some HEMA guys trying spears vs. swords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLLv8E2pWdk

Conclusion: spears are slightly better. But Shield+sword is even better (if the shield is used correctly).

And the best tactics for short range vs long range is simply rushing into CC range.