Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

[RyanW]

The changes I've been planning to test (semi-postponed upcoming game):

IQ and DX remain 20/level.
HT remains 10/level.
ST is... different. I'm still working on that.
Will and Per are independent of IQ, and Per is 10/level.
Reflex is (DX+Per)/4 and does most of what BS does except calculating Move.
Move is (DX+HT)/4.

[ErhnamDJ]

Why do you want to keep these attributes and sub-attributes packaged together? Why is that better than having Will and Speed and everything else being its own standalone thing?

Packaging the attributes together like that seems like more trouble than it's worth to me, so I'd like to see people with a different opinion give me some insight into why they like the attributes being tied to each other.

[Blind Mapmaker]

I agree that there are some problems with the current pricing scheme. Douglas Cole makes a good point (on his blog) for raising the price of Edit: HT (can't believe I wrote ST - sorry!) and we all know RPK's house rules (on his site) for disentangling WILL and PER from IQ.

Instead of entangling attributes like ST and WILL, I've been using this system for a couple of years now:

ST (10 points/level):
Does no longer affect HP. But HP are still limited to +/- 30% of ST. Damage and Basic Lift are unchanged.

DX (25 points/level):
Does no longer affect Basic Move, which is now completely independent from DX and HT. Still has its normal effect on Basic Speed.

IQ (25 points/level):
Does no longer affect PER and WILL at all, both are completely independent from IQ.

HT (15 points/level):
Does no longer affect FP, which are still limited to +/-30% of HT (including HT bonuses from Fit and Very Fit).

HP (2 points/level): Are unaffected by ST, but limited to to +/- 30% of ST.

Basic Speed (5 points/0,25 levels):
Unchanged from RAW.

Basic Move (5 points/level): Starts at 5 for native environment. All other rules referring to Basic Move or full move use the final level bought up or down from 5.

WILL (5 points/level):
Is completely unrelated to IQ. Starts at 10.

PER (5 points/level):
Is completely unrelated to IQ. Starts at 10.

FP (3 points/level):
Are unaffected by HT, but still limited to +/-30% of HT.

As you can see, the only direct link that's left is Basic Speed with DX and HT and that's what I'd consider a strong link. I wouldn't want to see it go completely. The other links are weak and only mean you cannot play a weakling with lots of HP or a have a frail body and run the marathon with lots of FP.

Yes, this does in effect add in lots of little attributes to GURPS, but it works reasonably well. I am merely tempted to raise the cost of WILL and PER up to 8 points/level). I have spells that are based on those stats and that makes them a bit too good. 3rd Edition had Weak Will pegged at -8 points/level and I that is more or less fitting, even though it offends our pentaphilia.

[AlexanderHowl]

I do think that there is utility in keeping a four attribute model though. I just think that ST should be mental and physical strength, DX should be physical acuity, IQ should be mental acuity, and HT should be mental and physical health. I do think that Lifting ST and Striking ST should be secondary characteristics though, that should vary +/-30% from base ST.

[Culture20]

If Mental Strength and Mental Health are separated, does Mental Strength just become stubbornness? i.e. a PC with a 4 in MH but a 17 in MS will not be easily persuaded to take their medication, while the sanest PC with MH 20 might also be horribly gullible (MS 3) and take meds not intended for them.

The difficult part about placing MS in ST and MH in HT is that you have to essentially always track the sub attributes anyway, so why not just split them off from the start? At least with IQ and will, there is some match-up unlike with IQ and Per where nearly every animal or stupid person buys Per up separately and consummate geniuses often buy Per down unless they're Sherlock Holmes.

[swampthing]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The fact that I can buy HT and sell back Basic Speed, FP, and Easy to Kill to gain the other benefits of HT for free.

What leads you to conclude that HT is underpriced, rather than concluding that one or more of the constituents you list are overpriced?

[swampthing]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I just think that ST should be mental and physical strength,

I can't imagine how that is helpful in building characters.

[Purple Snit]

I don't see the value in more hair-splitting. Why do you want to change it in the first place? Do you have Munchkin players who take advantage of buy-backs? Or is there another goal you have in mind? In almost 25 years of playing Gurps, no player has ever asked me for [I]more[I] complicated systems. And no game system can ever really simulate "real life" to everyone's satisfaction. I'm just unclear on what you're trying for here.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do think that there is utility in keeping a four attribute model though. I just think that ST should be mental and physical strength, DX should be physical acuity, IQ should be mental acuity, and HT should be mental and physical health.

ST currently represents physical strength, mass, and is a basis for how much damage you can take. Adding a mental component to it just doesn't make sense.

I do think you have something with respect to making Basic Speed (reaction time) based on DX and IQ. And maybe base Move Score on DX and HT.

But, if I understand your goals correctly, I think you might be better off with a 6 attribute system...

• ST 10/lvl (basic lift, ST damage, basis for HP)
• DX 20/lvl (most physical skills, basic speed, basic move)
• IN 20/lvl (most mental skills, basic speed)
• HT 10/lvl (basis for FP, basic move, survivability)
• PR 5/lvl (makes way more sense for animals instead of using rule of 12)
• WL 5/lvl (makes way more sense in general that how willful and confident you are is not based on how smart you are)

• HP 2/lvl (still based on ST because ST partly informs overall mass and it makes sense that an elephant would have more HP than a human)
• FP 3/lvl (still based on HT because how healthy you are definitely has a bearing on how much energy you have for exertion)

• Basic Speed = (DX + IN)/4, +/-5 per +/-0.25 (it's how quickly you react and act, so basically affects initiative and dodge, and makes up for IN losing PR and WL)
• Basic Move = (DX + HT)/4, +/-5 per +/-0.25 (basis for all physical movement. Normal Move Score is figured out as normal, but things like Flight are also based on this)
• Move Score = Integer part of Basic Move (this is your normal ground speed)

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

My one instant reaction is that ST and Will realistically have very little to do with each other.

I also agree on this.

HT with ST, makes more sense.
IQ with Will, makes sense too.