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Old 05-15-2019, 08:35 AM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

So, I am thinking of introducing a reevaluation of the attributes and secondary characteristics in my games to balance some of the problems associated with the current GURPS system. First, the cost of ST and HT increase to 20 CP/level, with HT gaining Per as a derived characteristic and ST gaining Will as a derived characteristic (HT representing mental health as well as physical health and ST representing mental strength as well as physical strength). Basic Speed would become equal to (DX plus IQ)/4 and Basic Move would become equal to (ST plus HT)/4, rounded down. Basic Lift, Damage, FP, and HP would remain the same. In addition, characters would be explicitly allowed to increase ST by one per FP or two per HP spent, up to a maximum increase to twice ST, in addition to the existing Extra Effort rules (lasting for one turn in combat or one minute outside of combat).

So, what do you think? Would you allow such a reevaluation of the attributes and secondary attributes? What benefits or problems would you expect from such a change?
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:32 AM   #2
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

ST and HP exist on a scale entirely distinct from the other Attributes. Other Attributes exist on a scale determined by the resolution mechanism of the 3d, roll under to succeed, fundamental rule. ST and HP, however, are not designed to work on this scale and legitimately differ on a scale bounded by the weight difference between mice and whales, as well as any more exotic beings.

I don't think horses should have better Will than humans and elephants should be incapable of failing an Intimidation roll.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for Per to default to HT, and it makes no sense at all for Will to default to ST. Why should a mental trait be based on how large and/or muscular you are?
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:58 PM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

Why do we assume that willpower is a purely mental phenomena? The research is pretty clear that it is a physiological component of the brain that responds to practice rather than a psychological structure within the brain with metaphysical properties. Anyway, the impact of Will through Extra Effort suggests that it is a measure of strength, so why not combine Will and ST?

If there is a concern about having strong animals with excessive Will, there is nothing that prevents racial templates from having a different range of Will than humans. Perhaps elephants would have ST+25 and Will-20 as part of their templates and mice would have ST-9 and Will+11. It makes as much sense as increasing Per and Will from IQ (+6 for both for elephants and +8 for both for mice).

In the case of Per, perception is purely a physiological phenomena in living creatures, as the part of the brain dealing with perception have little to do with cognition (though they interact with memory), and healthier animals have better awareness of their surrounding. It actually simplifies a number of templates to have Per equal to HT, as the majority of animals have HT and Per around 12 anyway. Of course, the price increase means that HT is still more expensive than before, but it was always too cheap (I could pay for a level of HT by taking Basic Speed -0.25, FP-1, and Easy to Kill 1, and I would still gain a bonus to the majority of HT rolls and all HT skills).
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
If there is a concern about having strong animals with excessive Will, there is nothing that prevents racial templates from having a different range of Will than humans. Perhaps elephants would have ST+25 and Will-20 as part of their templates and mice would have ST-9 and Will+11. It makes as much sense as increasing Per and Will from IQ (+6 for both for elephants and +8 for both for mice).
I suspect you'll continue to get pushback on this. 3e was pretty inelegant with split health scores -- connecting ST to HP and putting those numbers on a scale not limited by the 3d6 roll-under paradigm was a simple change that fixed a lot of headaches.

If I wanted to connect Will to a non-IQ score, I'd connect it to health. A lot of HT rolls (staying up when at -HP, I'm looking at you) seem very Will-Roll-Like to me.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

Don't forget - Will and Per (and everything else) are artificial terms and numbers designed to simulate effects in a dice-based game; it isn't a scientifically-detailed simulation of biology. Will specifically simulates "strength of mind" in fiction and media; Perception is a reflection of characters with sharp senses (getting a "feeling" is Danger Sense). I really don't see how juggling stats and making non-intuitive connections is making things more playable or fun. Ymmv, of course.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

They are still functions of the brain, rather than tied to physical health or mass. A block of concrete can have a ST score(really an HP score and no ST), no DX, No IQ, and HT. Giving them a Per and Will score based on their mass and structural integrity seems questionable.

It's gonna do weird things for balance. ST was already a less effective buy at 10pts. Atleast previously Will could be bought up for 5pts a level. Your change makes it a 20 point buy for what would otherwise be a 15 point bundle of attributes. Strength just gets more expensive relative to everything else. HT also goes up in cost, loses the benefit to basic speed, and now costs five points more than buying HT and Perception independently. Both attributes become less desirable in comparison to DX and IQ.

Animals need either more DX, raising their already generally high DX levels even further, to retain the same basic speeds they have now due to the change in basic speed calculations, and more template work to balance things out.

Is the point to devalue ST and HT in havor of IQ and DX?
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

As long as you can split Move or Willpower from it's base it doesn't matter all that much where it falls. In the case of a sprinter it's peculiar that being very healthy and lithe wouldn't reflect a high movement, or that a musclebound weight-lifter might have to realistically lower their movement.

The bigger issue is the role of Strength in different tech levels. In a high tech game with light equipment and little reason to use thrust and swing damage expensive ST doesn't matter much. In a lower tech world it becomes very expensive to be effective in combat. 20pt Strength makes a cheap swing weapon with a large damage boost much much more appealing than knife or a halberd where a lot of points will have to be spent for efficacy.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
(...) to balance some of the problems associated with the current GURPS system (...)
And what are those, in your opinion?
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Revaluation of Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
balance some of the problems associated with the current GURPS system
I assume you mean the CP based character building system. Unless there is a specific pain point in your game that needs to be addressed, it's easiest to just accept the problems with the current meta than try to create your own meta that will most likely just have a different set of problems.

Alternately, consider just allowing folks to build to concept, or at least allowing a lot of leeway in concept builds that aren't obviously munchy.
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