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Old 03-18-2019, 10:16 AM   #1
Nose66
 
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Default Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

I am unable to determine the relative power of a learned prayer. The guidelines seem to contradict the math.

On page 9, at the bottom of the "New Learned Prayers" box, it shows a table of Point Costs, Learned Prerequisite and a Minimum Reaction:

Quote:
1-15, Divine Favor 4, Neutral
16-20, Divine Favor 5, Neutral
21-25, Divine Favor 6, Neutral
26-35, Divine Favor 7, Good
36-45, Divine Favor 8, Good
46-55, Divine Favor 9, Good
56-70, Divine Favor 10, Very Good
...
And then says:

Quote:
If the miracle seems to fall in the “wrong” reaction range – taking the guidelines for General Prayer (p. 5) into account – it’s fine to go back and adjust it until it feels right. Adding enhancements like Affects Other and Cosmic can “bump” a miracle into the next category (while adding genuine value), and limitations like Limited Use or Takes Recharge can help bring down a miracle that seems overpriced.
And on page 5, it describes the level of miracle you would get based on the reaction from your deity:

Quote:
- Very Good: An undeniable miracle is sent – a spring appears to slake your thirst, you emit a holy light which destroys supernatural enemies, a gaping wound or horrible disease is instantly healed, etc.
- Good: This is a more subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc.
- Neutral: You receive a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection.
So, if I build a prayer like:
"Burning Touch"
Innate Attack (Burn) 6d6 (Divine, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach C, -30%; Onset, 1 minute, -10%) [15]
From the table on page 9, this lies at the bottom of the "Neutral" category, and has a prerequisite of Divine Favor 4.

But Page 5 says that a "Neutral" level miracle can only give "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection". A 6D6 Burning attack seems way outside this boundary.

Do I need to make a subjective call on the prayer to say that 6D6 is just too much for the point cost [15], and add more enhancements?

Something like:
"Holy Touch of Damnation"
Innate Attack (Burn) 6d6 (Divine, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach C, -30%; Onset, 1 minute, -10%; Cosmic, No die roll required, +100%;) [45]
Which puts this prayer in the middle of the "Good" reaction range. Even still, this seems well over the guidelines for Good "This is a more subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc. "

This is my dilemma. I can't figure out how to build a spell and reconcile it with the guidelines on page 5.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

It depends totally on the feel you want to give your campaigns.

I would personally not allow a 6d6 base damage for effectively 3 points unless it was a modern/scifi campaign where you can buy such as normal weapons easily.

The no die roll required is actually a thing that gives it that nice "divine power" feel.

So I would personally think that for my campaigns the second power is much better and more divine power feeling than the first.

When it comes to any powers built, basically in the end the GM has to think "does it make sense" in terms of the power level, point cost and feel.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
When it comes to any powers built, basically in the end the GM has to think "does it make sense" in terms of the power level, point cost and feel.
But that is the crux of the matter. It is all terribly subjective.

Thaumatology - Sorcery and Divine Powers both use approximately the same rules for building new spells/prayers, except that Thaumatology - Sorcery enforces a skill roll and a Fatigue Cost and Divine Powers has this subjective guideline.

And so for Sorcery spells, I can basically assume that the GURPS Powers have been playtested over enough time that they aren't totally out of balance with the rest of the system, and the player's spells will "fit right in".

But with Divine Powers, it all comes down to "I said so"?
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
But with Divine Powers, it all comes down to "I said so"?
That is rather the crux of a fiat system.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
That is rather the crux of a fiat system.
Ok, so are there any better guidelines? Specifically, the Divine Powers book rarely mentions any kind of direct damage prayer, and when it does, they are are HUGE massive miracles.

Are there no small cost/small damage prayers? And if so, what guidelines could I use to determine which fits where?
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:43 PM   #6
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
This is my dilemma. I can't figure out how to build a spell and reconcile it with the guidelines on page 5.
If you want to follow the guidelines then don't build low powered super-flashy spells like that. Simple. But they are just guidelines. I'd chuck 'em in a Dungeon Fantasy setting.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

In this particular instance, one could add Cosmic:Irresistable Attack +300% ("My god's wrath sneers at your puny armor!") to bring the cost up to 135 and well into Miraculous territory.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
So, if I build a prayer like:
"Burning Touch"
Innate Attack (Burn) 6d6 (Divine, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach C, -30%; Onset, 1 minute, -10%) [15]
From the table on page 9, this lies at the bottom of the "Neutral" category, and has a prerequisite of Divine Favor 4.

But Page 5 says that a "Neutral" level miracle can only give "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection". A 6D6 Burning attack seems way outside this boundary.
So, remember, the page-5 rules don't directly apply to learned miracles or specific miracles requesting learned miracles. It only applies by way of the 'if this seems wrong' paragraph you cited, which says you (the GM) may revise it.

The general miracle table is calibrated for a setting where overt supernatural phenomena are at least a bit of a big deal. If it's setting-appropriate for somebody on moderately good terms with a god to burn people's faces off with a touch, that table is probably not right and should be adjusted. If that isn't setting-appropriate, then your Burning Touch power doesn't fit in and should be removed or replaced with something more befitting 'god is done with fudging the dice and has decided to unleash some wrath'.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Gurps doesn't give you permission to buy a trait. It tells you how much it costs if you do. In order to buy something, you need both the points and the narrative explanation.

This is especially true in powers, where all sorts of abilities can be made, but won't fit every power. You can build a mind control ability with the Pyromancer power modifier. That doesn't mean that Pyromancers can use mind control, it just tells you how much that ability would cost the Pyromancer if he bought it.

Both sorcery and divine favor are extensions of the powers system, not separate systems. Divine Favor is based on the the Patron advantage, with some expansive and powerful modifiers, and prayers an adaptation and expansion of the stunts (abilities from a default) and alternate ability rules. The rules in stunts and alternate abilities don't talk much about whether an ability is appropriate to the power or not, they just give mechanics once you a cost for the ability.

I will say that giving a flaming attack at touch range is a little odd for a divine power, unless you're the cleric of a flame god or something. I'd expect divine fire to either be more impressive, more subtle, or more convenient. If you're calling down divine fire on your foes, call it down with area attack at range. If anyone you touch is burned, that's an aura. If you're just trying to start a fire in the frozen north, increase the flammability of this particular fire, or use serendipity to discover some dry wood.

Remember that the GM role-played diety chooses the effects, not the player, and the diety will quite possibly have different priorities.

In summary: You need to afford the ability, and you need narrative permission for it. The costs are about being able to afford the ability, while the description of the type of prayer is about the narrative permission.
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Last edited by ericthered; 03-18-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
If you want to follow the guidelines then don't build low powered super-flashy spells like that. Simple. But they are just guidelines. I'd chuck 'em in a Dungeon Fantasy setting.
But that is my point... what defines "low powered super-flashy"?

So it seems that 6d6 (with a few limitations) is too high for a 15 point prayer.

What about 4d6? Or 2d6?

This is my point. The Divine Powers guidelines say that anything with a Full Cost (before the 1/5 for alternate advantage) of 25 pts or less can only give you "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection".

With 25 Pts, you could normally buy:

5d6 Burn Attack
a 50% Ally, summonable, always available
Combat Reflexes (+1 to all active Defenses, Fast Draw, etc.)
DR 5
Dark Vision
An Extra Attack
An Extra Life
Gunslinger
etc.

And yet, if you tried to make these Learned Prayers in Divine Favor, I don't think any of them fit into the guideline of "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection".

So I am lost. I don't see how I am to characterize a 55 point Learned Prayer (which qualifies as "Good") as a "subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc."

Heck, for 55 points, you better be able to do more than that!!

So I, as the GM, have to arbitrate every Learned Prayer to try to determine which bucket it fits in?

I have no problem doing the work, what I have a problem with is the guidelines themselves. They gave a single line of context for prayers that can differ in cost by as much as 25 points, and they make little to no mention of direct damage prayers.

Last edited by Nose66; 03-18-2019 at 03:05 PM.
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