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06-20-2014, 07:29 AM | #1 | |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
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Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
So, this has come up before, and very recently in this thread, but I thought it deserved it's own space for discussion.
When you train to fight, some part of that training involves the proper ergonomics of maximizing your striking power. I tend to think of this as "hitting with your whole body", because that's what it means in most my own martial arts training.* Now, GURPS already gives a damage bonus for high levels of Karate, Brawling, and Boxing, and for weapons if you buy Weapon Master. But increased weapon Damage with high skills isn't particularly cinematic. The Trained Strength rules from Technical Grappling seem like a good alternative for achieving increased striking power from high skill. Douglas Cole gives his thoughts on the matter here. My own thoughts are to simply reduce all Melee and Thrown weapon damage (by -1, perhaps?), and then plug them into a Trained Strength Progression: Quote:
*I've trained the longest in Hsing-I and Baji Chuan (GURPS write-up available here), but I've also studied Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and I've dabbled in Jeet Kune Do and Boxing. My weapon training (in GURPS terms) covers Spear, Staff, and Broadsword.
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My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. Last edited by aesir23; 06-20-2014 at 08:42 AM. Reason: Added Brawling to Average Progression, I'd forgotten it before. |
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06-20-2014, 07:55 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
When it comes to bows I tend to allow bow users to make the equivalent of an extra effort roll to increase there basic draw weight but using their bow skill rather than will power. (but with no FP cost, if you use the rules in the deadly spring this can increase how quickly a heavier bow is drawn and reduced AP cost if using last gasp).
That way I can have your ability to draw more powerful bows as a matter of experience from training as well as underlying ST. And your choice of bow isn't just one you can pull draw at your best, but one you can reliably draw time and time again. I also allow those to add an EE roll on top of this if they need to because maybe they fluffed the skill based roll (or choose to try an even higher pull bow that would normally be out of there comfort zone). But TBH trained ST for Drawing bows might just be an easier way of doing it. Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-20-2014 at 08:00 AM. |
06-20-2014, 08:17 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
I've recently been revamping this system, and Trained ST is part of it. Your categories look alright to me, although I don't think fencing styles should use Slow Progression - rather, they should typically be restricted to thrusting damage ("swings" would do thr cut). Note this already makes them have slower damage progression than most other weapons, as they need +2 to ST for every +1 to damage.
For reference, here are the progressions I'm going to be working with. Weapon Master automatically gives +1 to progression (Slow to Average, Average to Fast, Fast to Very Fast). Beyond DX+4, every +3 to skill is +1 to ST, as normal. Code:
Progression DX-1 DX DX+1 DX+2 DX+4 Slow -2 -1 -1 0 +1 Average -2 -1 0 +1 +2 Fast -2 -1 +1 +2 +3 Very Fast -2 -1 +2 +3 +4 |
06-20-2014, 08:38 AM | #4 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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One of my ulterior motives for putting Fencing on the Slow progression was to address the questions in this thread. It makes Fencing more of an even trade off, I think--so if you want to take Broadsword as a fencing weapon, now you're trading better parries for both Encumbrance penalties AND slower progression. Although I have been an advocate for a cap on swing damage in the past, this would make that unnecessary. I think the effects of Weapon Master and Trained by a Master are open questions. I already use a House Rule that replaces Trained by a Master with Weapon Master (Unarmed). I like the idea of increasing progression 1 step with Weapon Master. Of course, then there's the question of whether Boxing and Karate get a damage bonus too, despite already being fast...
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My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. |
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06-20-2014, 09:08 AM | #5 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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As for Boxing and Karate, Fast Progression should replace their normal damage bonus, just as Average Progression should replace the damage bonus of Brawling. Personally, however, I have the ST bonus count "double" for Thrusting attacks, such that every +1 to ST is +1 to both Thrust and Swing, rather than being +1/2 to Thrust and +1 to Swing. This would match the damage bonuses from Brawling, Boxing, and Karate. |
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06-20-2014, 09:25 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters. |
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06-21-2014, 02:07 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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a). bypassing armour (hitting where it's not) b). target areas where damage is multiplied (hitting where it hurts) Adding to raw damage would seem to be double dipping both and to an extent removing (a) as advantage. This last will have a knock on effect on higher skill in combination with set ups etc where your leverage your higher skill but at the cost of being able to target higher value locations. Put it this way set ups and deceptive attacks etc just got even better for higher skilled users because they can get the bonuses and not worry about where they are hitting so much. Similarly armour is going to be an issue (without rehashing that debate) this will certainly mean more armour will be blown through more quickly. If nothing else the damage from unarmed skills is at least restricted to cr damage (apart from those specific weapons that use karate or esoteric perks/techniques). But damage multipliers will multiplier those bonuses as well. It going to come down to what weapons are in what progression of course, and I certainly use convert d+X to dice because you'll get quite a lot of fixed damage. That said I can't help but think everyone will chose a weapon that have the higher progression rate as a matter of course. Simply because the advantage of doing so will be too great to ignore. Still for cinematic games I think it's a great fit, it will if nothing else explain cinematic amour. Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-21-2014 at 02:20 AM. |
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06-21-2014, 08:47 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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Essentially, skilled practitioners hit harder and more accurately. There is indeed synergy between these two, which makes highly-skilled warriors dangerous, but I'm perfectly fine with that. *Limitation value taken from Extra Attack. A higher value may be appropriate here - Unarmed Only applies to more than one skill (although many of those skills allow weapons, which this wouldn't) and is -40%, which may be more appropriate and would reduce cost to [3]. The progressions are for skills, not weapons, and a higher progression almost invariably means a more difficult skill. A character with Brawling (Easy skill, Average progression) at DX+7 has paid [24] for his skill and +3 to his Striking ST. A character with Karate (Hard skill, Fast progression) at DX+7 has instead paid [32] for his skill and +4 to his Striking ST - if his GM allows it, he would have been better off (from a damage standpoint) investing those extra [8] into Striking ST 2 (Single Skill -20%) and had a +5 to Striking ST. Heck, this makes me think my current (unposted-as-yet) draft of my Combat Skills Overhaul is wrong in making Fast progression a +2 to skill difficulty, but I think I'm going to stick with that anyway and probably disallow Striking ST (Single Skill), which honestly doesn't make sense as its own Advantage if you're giving it away as a high skill bonus. |
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06-21-2014, 09:13 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lynn, MA
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
Just to note Striking ST Limitations for the discussion:
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06-21-2014, 09:53 AM | #10 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]
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I.e the issue of hand held damage vis a vis armour penetration is its variability, this just seems to add to it. At least with increasing ST's you can say High ST's wear thicker armour, you have no similar counter balance for higher skill penetrating more armour. However this is an issue of the sweet spot between Current DR and hand held weapon penetration being so narrow at the moment. I get the point about skilled users being able to hit harder and better, and I agree. It's just that instead of making it easier for them to do both I would just cost the different benefits as per normal rather than giving a synergistic discount. Basically as you point out the per skill level cost reduced at higher levels, for me that it too powerful especially as at those higher levels you are already able to leverage that higher skill in different ways. To be honest I've had high skill act as an unusual background buy in threshold for limited increased striking ST. Quote:
Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-22-2014 at 01:43 AM. |
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Tags |
martial arts, technical grappling, trained st, trained strength |
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