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Old 02-10-2020, 06:05 AM   #1
GoodDM
 
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Default Stealth rules questions

I read threads, uFAQ, Kromm notes and rulebooks about stealth for 3 days. And completely lost. There is so many different rules and modifiers. So I need help. I don't even vaguely understand what to roll and how.

1. Do I need to use range mod. in a quick contest? If I need to use them, why in Action, DF, AtE series nothing about this? Even more - ambush rules in DF16 on page 37 states that the (15 - margin) is the distance where the encounter begins! I don't think I need to use distance mod. because I don't even know the distance in this case. Why I need to use distanse in other cases ignoring only ambushes? What happened? More. In basic rules p.222 when stalking the game you roll vs Stealth at 30 yards and suddenly Stealth-5 at 15 yards! How this works? From where this "-5" came from? Distance? But there is no "-5" difference in penalties at 30 yards and 15 yards! Or do I need to use distance mod. above this strange poped-out "-5"?
2. Do we use +10 plain sight bonus or not? Kromm many times stated, that if you use stealth, your opposition does not get +10. But suddenly Tactical Shooting says:"Seeing the shooter requires a Quick Contest between his Camouflage and your Vision or Observation. Modifiers: Range penalties (p. B550); Vision penalties (p. B358); bla bla bla and +10 for visible targets in plain sight, reduced for cover and posture modifiers – e.g., someone lying down (-4) behind heavy cover (-4) would give only +2." What? Why? From where came this plain sight if he clearly using Camouflage. Why only Camouflage? You cannot hide using your stealth when sniping? What a garbage.
3. Again, If I use distance mod. in quick contest, why spotting some one specialy looking for him is harder then when not? According to uFAQ Kromm said: you only get one chance to spot someone. So if I don't look for intruder, intruder simply roll's against, say 10 stealth, and have 50/50 chance to fail it. But if I am on alert it is a quick contest where I need to roll against per say 10 modified for distance (let it be 20 yd for -6!!! penalty). Sorry but now it is way much easier for intruder to pass. He rolls against same 10 and I roll against 4. It is very strange.
4. Basic set don't list distance mod. for Observation Skill. But suddenly uses modifier for cover and BONUS for suitable surveillance devices (a thermograph to spot a concealed sniper, binoculars to observe troop movements, etc.). But no where in rulebooks binoculars give bonuses! The eliminate penalties. Arrrrr! Even more and more. In contrast Forward Observer skill LISTS range penalties. But flat -3 per 500 yards divided by the magnification of any vision aid!!! Why flat? Why 500? Why -3? Why divided? My head is exploding.
5. "Under the Hood: the mark one eyeball" article in Powers: Enhanced Senses suddenly doubles +10 bonus to +20. Ok. As they say it is the same way the modifier for Telescopic Vision doubles for similar tasks. But again I see something strange at the end of the article - "Vision-based skill rolls do not take the +10 or +20 modifier". Ahhahaha. Enough. Now I don't even understand how I have to observe peoples IN PLAIN SIGHT using skill's.

Sorry for too many expression but I am plaing GURPS for 3 years and still cannot reconstruct the full working picture of stealth vs vision. And I even not begin to speak about stealth vs hearing with flat hearing-2 to locate invisible foe, "1 yard of unmodified hearing distance roll on Failed Stealth" from Enhanced Senses and so on. For now I whant to know only one thing "Do I need to use range mod. in a quick contest or not?" And if I need, why it is so freak and have so many misunderstanding

Last edited by GoodDM; 02-10-2020 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Title was needlessly negative
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Old 02-10-2020, 10:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

I think the main problem comes fron only one thing: options.

GURPS is a game designed to be as realistic as you want, which means it can be harshly realistic, quite realistic, cinematic, or even crazily fun... depending on the options you use or drop.

Action and Dungeon Fantasy are cinematic, for instance, while Tactical Shooting is harshly realistic.

So, it's up to you to decide whether you will use distance modifiers, +10 bonus for being in plain sight, and so on.

The basic rule is: quick contest of Stealth vs Perception. All other rules are just optional and depend on the genre of your games and the level of detail you want.

Last edited by Gollum; 02-10-2020 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 02-10-2020, 11:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

As Gollum said, some option are for cinematic games, some for realistic games, other for both ...

In general:

To escape being seen by casual observers : stealth roll, modified as per b222

A failure mean you will be noticed ... if there is someone to look.
A success mean you will not be noticed.

To escape being seen by someone "on alert" : quick contest of stealth vs perception (or a relevant skill if the target is actively looking for something and it is better)

To ambush someone : quick contest of stealth vs perception

You never (afaik) use distance mods on the stealth roll, except in the special case of stalking game, with the alternate rule in basic that avoid rolling quick contest . You can safely ignore that rule, it is confusing.

For point 2, the rule in tactical shooting give you the vision modifier to use when someone is not using the camouflage or stealth skill but is only partially visible due to cover and posture.
If the target is using stealth or camouflage, ignore this modifier.

For point 5, if the target is not using stealth or camoufalge and is on plain sight, you get +10. If you have already spotted the target and are focusing on details on it, use +20.
if you are using observation, search, scrounging or another skill floated to per (for example, riding to get relevant information about an horse you are looking at), you don't get the +10/+20.

Hope this help !

Last edited by Celjabba; 02-10-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 02-10-2020, 04:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

There was a great pyramid article about that topic - >> The Art of Camouflage << for GURPS by S.E. Mortimer. Maybe you can find it somewhere?

Moreover, the articles on this site have good informations on that, too: http://gurpsshooting.blogspot.com/20...uide-part.html
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Old 02-10-2020, 04:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
In general:

To escape being seen by casual observers : stealth roll, modified as per b222

A failure mean you will be noticed ... if there is someone to look.
A success mean you will not be noticed.

To escape being seen by someone "on alert" : quick contest of stealth vs perception (or a relevant skill if the target is actively looking for something and it is better)
And here lies a problem - if nobody is actively looking, you get seen if you fail your roll. If they are actively looking, and their Perception is low, you can have a better chance of not being spotted, because even your failures might not blow your cover if they fail by more.
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Old 02-10-2020, 05:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
And here lies a problem - if nobody is actively looking, you get seen if you fail your roll
Though to avoid that, you can use camouflage, too. Then in case of failure the enemy just notices "there was something unusual" which maybe has to be checked...

Last edited by OldSam; 02-10-2020 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 02-10-2020, 05:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

PS:
I think what should be considered is the generic task difficulty: E.g. if we a are sneaking on someone not being on guard, not awaiting something like that and the environment offers good cover, that is much more easy...

IMHO the GM should really give positive modifiers when it fits the situation!

For instance I found a stealth suggestion for that modifier: "+3 or more if there are many hiding places".

Another idea may be that it is dark or raining, there may be loud environment sounds... (More difficult vision and hearing). As GM I would give bonuses for that on the stealth roll.


And in general that FAQ may be helpful, too: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=118

Last edited by OldSam; 02-10-2020 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 02-10-2020, 05:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

Gurps After the end 2 have quite a few suggestion for stealth modifiers in various situations (most of those are elsewhere too, if not all, but ATE is a great compilation)
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Old 02-10-2020, 10:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
And here lies a problem - if nobody is actively looking, you get seen if you fail your roll. If they are actively looking, and their Perception is low, you can have a better chance of not being spotted, because even your failures might not blow your cover if they fail by more.
Yes, but most often, this is not a problem since the average man (so the average sentry) has a Perception score of 10.
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Old 02-10-2020, 11:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Stealth rules questions

Thank you for your replies. So as I understend there is no clear system. Only "situational". Even if I use only one system from, for example, DF16 there are many strange things. So if I have an ambushing Elf with MODIFIED stealth 10 and an Orc prey with MODIFIED vision 10 (Assume he is deaf for not to speak about his Hearing) and both Elf and Orc roll 10 on their dice, the Orc spots Elf at 15 yard distance. But at the same time if Elf declare "I am ambushing from 15 yd". Now for some reason Elf rolls against same 10 and Orc against suddenly 5? Because of "-5" range penalty for 15 yd range? At least strange.

And sorry GURPS, I love you very much. But numbers are wierd. I cannot imagine a situation where i cannot see some one popping his head around a coner 10 yd (-4) away at twilight (-3)! I can make 100 reality checks, but I think that it will be 99 in 100 that I see my opponent. Not 3 vs 10! In RAW there is no +10 bonus. My opponent is using Stealth. And I assume he HAVE TO POP OUT. If he just wait behind coner, I have no chance to see him. He is in total cover. Remember, we speak about deaf. So to spot some one poping behind coner 10 yd away is 3 vs 10. GURPS, are you serious?

Last edited by GoodDM; 02-10-2020 at 11:15 PM.
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