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Old 11-05-2018, 03:13 PM   #31
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It's really only hard to do against an immobile target. The problem is that GURPS puts all of evasive movement into the Dodge score instead of making it generically hard to hit moving targets.
I guess that why I kind of see it as trying to hit an immobile or unmoving target as either the equivalent of a non combat situation with non combat bonuses*. Or there's the assumption that there's no reason not to use some combination of Telegraphic, AoA Determined and Evaluate on a target that's not moving because it's not aware or isn't going to move for some other reason


*in fact isn't it written some where that hitting a truly immobile objects e.g a chair is an automatic hit or +10 or the like?
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The problem with "swing and miss" is that it's hard to do.*
I've seen a few Youtube clips of people brawling with DX default fists, looks like 'swing and miss' is easy to do. I accept it's less likely with skill 12 to 14 combatants.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Is that really a common criticism? Not calling you out here... just really? That's very weird to me, having been in street fights with baseball bats and having seen people miss swings to the torso.
Not meaning to pile on with the "Missing is actually easy!" comments – and if Kromm says he hears that particular criticism from non-fans, I certainly believe him – but I'll add my own little anecdote from fencing, many a year ago.

The instructor for our clutch of clumsy newbies, apparently frustrated by our apparent inability to poke the broad side of a barn, gave us the best target he could: He stood stock still, threw out his arms, stuck his remarkably voluminous belly forward, and said to each of us in turn, "Now hit me!"

We had all the time we wanted, to line up the Evaluates and the Telegraphic Attacks and the AOAs and whatever we wanted, and take a poke at this unmoving, unresisting, good-sized target. Did we ever miss?

Boy, did we ever. It was actually funny, how easy it was to sail right by this "can't miss" target. It was like discovering we had a slice or a hook or whatever they call it in golf: this bizarre inability to just hit straight.

(Granted, we had no skill, and maybe the oddness of a "Come on and hit me!" target was psychologically distracting, causing an extra -1 or something.)

Anyway. I don't know about swinging baseball bats, but where poking with a foil or stick is concerned, there's no "can't" in "can't miss".
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:36 AM   #34
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

Unpacking Failed Attack Rolls in GURPS is more in the nature of long musing. I don't really come down on any side, so to speak, but it got too long for a forum post.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:24 AM   #35
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Unpacking Failed Attack Rolls in GURPS is more in the nature of long musing. I don't really come down on any side, so to speak, but it got too long for a forum post.
I enjoyed it. I have a comment, but I should acknowledge that unlike many in the discussion I can't speak to the reality of the arguments about combat pace, swinging and missing because I don't fight in any form.

That being said: From a game mechanics standpoint, it seems to me that if one is troubled by the verisimilitude of "failed roll=swing and a miss" that the easy(?) fix is to do something that makes Evaluate a better tactical option so that the pace of combat and the number of attack rolls made goes down.

The Last Gasp is very good for this IMO, but I wonder what other tweaks people have tried to the Evaluate maneuver over the years.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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I enjoyed it. I have a comment, but I should acknowledge that unlike many in the discussion I can't speak to the reality of the arguments about combat pace, swinging and missing because I don't fight in any form.

That being said: From a game mechanics standpoint, it seems to me that if one is troubled by the verisimilitude of "failed roll=swing and a miss" that the easy(?) fix is to do something that makes Evaluate a better tactical option so that the pace of combat and the number of attack rolls made goes down.

The Last Gasp is very good for this IMO, but I wonder what other tweaks people have tried to the Evaluate maneuver over the years.
In effect, that's what my post is about. The analogy to On Target from Pyr #3/77 is very deliberate here, as is the nod to the Technical Grappling and Fantastic Dungeon Grappling method of play.

In effect, turning Aim from "I aim, I get a fixed bonus," to "I aim, I have to make a skill roll with a variable effect if successful" has been wildly effective in play for me with bows and guns. It makes it risky, fun, and required to get a good shot in in many cases. The uncertain effect means that you might CHOOSE to wait a few turns until your bonus is where you want, and then shoot.

What I'm trying to do is recreate that dynamic for melee combat. Each turn, you do something active in terms of agency that brings a tangible but delayed benefit: a bonus to your rolls, which can be used on attack or defense but once gone, is used up.

The foe can counter this by using footwork and skill to build up maneuver room and points to spend of their own, and the key bit is when someone builds up, or suddenly finds themselves with, enough points to allow a strike into an inevitable hit, with enough left over to muck up the defense roll enough to make it certain.

That will provide ebb-and-flow to a combat without having to risk the bookkeeping inherent in Action Points, which while manageable is a legit issue with the system. Actually, that's not quite right, since you're managing a store of points in both cases. Perhaps it's because so many maneuvers are rewritten in the case of Action Point, where only one (whatever Evaluate becomes) is in the new thing. But you're still managing a resource pool in any case; I'm just used to carrying over bonuses to hit and parry because they're already RAW, I guess.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Unpacking Failed Attack Rolls in GURPS is more in the nature of long musing. I don't really come down on any side, so to speak, but it got too long for a forum post.
This got me thinking:

Feint is probably the right thing to use, mechanically—QC of melee skills. But if you called it something else (other than Feint)—like Timed Offense or something—it actually solves a number of issues:
  • Using Feint over and over starts to get into "how many times can you fool me" territory, but Timed Offense (FREX) sounds more like circling-and-probing or changing stances
  • Basically eliminates the cognitive disconnect when someone gets "feinted" and decides to withdraw (which, currently, you have to do some hoop-jumping, like delaying the defender's roll so he doesn't know, to prevent)
  • Basically eliminates the cognitive disconnect when you successfully Feint, followed by the defender's attack, and then capitalize on it—in this case, only the Feint and Attack (whatever version) is the "traditional" feint
  • Could be "summarized" into a single how-long-till-one-fighter-finds-an-opening roll, rather than drag it out, if needed
  • Might be useful for other applications
Edit: In retrospect, I think that would be a better usage for the Evaluate maneuver—give it a Feint-like QC instead of the "aim" mechanic

Last edited by Gigermann; 11-06-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 10:01 AM   #38
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
What I'm trying to do is recreate that dynamic for melee combat. Each turn, you do something active in terms of agency that brings a tangible but delayed benefit: a bonus to your rolls, which can be used on attack or defense but once gone, is used up.
I know you know this, but I'm to give context to my thoughts: whatever is done will have to be better, mathematically, than just attacking every turn, which for high-skilled fighters (not using the Last Gasp) is pretty attractive.

I wonder how it would work to treat Evaluate (or something that is evaluate-like) as granting a penalty to opponent defenses rather than a boost to your own attack and at the same time reducing the effect of deceptive attack or eliminating it entirely. Are your opponents defenses so sound that you need need a penalty to get through? You'll have to take some time to set that up.

Just a thought, and probably a thought that takes us a bit afield of the OP.
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Old 11-07-2018, 03:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

I don't know if what I'm telling here will be really useful, but this is just what I think about that interesting thread. My two cents ...

1) As a 4th dan karateka and a kobudoka beginner (kobudo is the study of the traditional weapons from Okinawa), I can assure that starting to use a new weapon is much harder than usually supposed. No matter how previously trained you are, you feel clumsy. So, GURPS default system is right here, in my humble opinion. Sure, someone trained has good reflexes that someone untrained doesn't have. But, precisely, those "reflexes" are very well simulated with advantages: combat reflexes, enhanced dodge or parry, etc., and, why not a specific Talent. GURPS Basic Set encourages to build new talents.

2) Missing a target which doesn't move when swinging is perfectly realistic during combats. Never forget that a GURPS combat turn only lasts one second, and that you may try to hit just after attacking another target and defending, all that with the stress due to possibly be wounded or even killed... Those who imagine that it is impossible to miss a target when swinging usually think about a situation where they have no stress and all the time they want to do so. Which, in GURPS, best corresponds to an All Out and Telegraphic attack (+8!) plus time to evaluate (a further +1, at minimum)... In a situation where you have less than one second (you also will have to defend), things are very different.

3) I don't see any problem with saying that a missed attack is an hesitation, as long as there is no rule consequence (wasted ammo, unready weapon...). To the contrary, making missed attacks description vary is what makes combat much more fun and living. During combat, it's hard to attack every second all the time! Not finding a good opening is very usual, as well as being a bit unbalanced or out of reach after defending, and so on. So being attacked several times in a raw without succeeding to react is common; as common as swinging or thrusting and missing a target who doesn't even try to avoid your blow. See MMA or other kinds of combat videos on the Net attentively if you don't believe me.

Brief, hesitation is a good interpretation of a missed attack. It really adds fun to the game, and also makes things appear more realistic. But hesitation just doesn't have to be used systematically. Exactly as "actual attack but missed one" doesn't have to be used systematically.

Last edited by Gollum; 11-07-2018 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: Failed attack rolls

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
As a 4th dan karateka and a kobudoka beginner (kobudo is the study of the traditional weapons from Okinawa), I can assure that starting to use a new weapon is much harder than usually supposed. No matter how previously trained you are, you feel clumsy. So, GURPS default system is right here, in my humble opinion. Sure, someone trained has good reflexes that someone untrained doesn't have. But, precisely, those "reflexes" are very well simulated with advantages: combat reflexes, enhanced dodge or parry, etc., and, why not a specific Talent. GURPS Basic Set encourages to build new talents.

I disagree. In GURPS, punching defaults to DX and Kicking to DX-2. I also have a martial arts background in Karate and Kendo, and I would say that hitting a target with a hand weapon, like a club, spear, baseball bat, etc., is far easier than landing a solid kick or punch. Also, the reach of a weapon is a benefit to combat timing even for beginners. The closer one gets to the enemy in a fight - or the shorter the reach of the weapon - the harder it is to hit them, largely because of panic, fear of getting hit, etc. But hitting someone with a spear or polearm is much easier, but not so according to GURPS - Spear defaults to DX-5 and a kick to DX-2? Is that your experience watching white and yellow belts? If it is, then we are on different planets.

I would suggest that punches and other natural attacks should default to DX-2, kicks to DX-4. Spears and blunt melee weapons like bats, clubs, maces, staffs, should default to DX-2, cutting or chopping weapons should default to DX-3 (edge alignment is a thing and can be difficult), and whips and flails to DX-5.

I also think the defaults between a lot of melee weapon skills are exaggerated and some of it should be replaced with familiarity penalties. Should Saber default to Broadsword-4? As an example, if you have Broadsword at DX+4, an investment of 16 points, which is years of practice and experience (for argument sake, lets use the 200 hours of practice per point rule - so 3,200 hours of practice), then your Saber skill is at DX for free. Raising it to the same level of your Broadsword would save you a whopping 2 points, meaning that it would take 2,800 hours of practice to reach the same level of familiarity? If it defaulted to Broadsword-2, then it would still take 8 points which is 1,600 hours of practice, which is closer, but I still think that is not accurate. Personally, I would say that they are the same skill but if you aren't familiar with the Saber then you have a -2 familiarity penalty. I would allow familiarity penalties to be bought off as average techniques - so a 2 point investment to be equally good with Sabers and Arming swords. That is still equivalent to about 400 hours of practice, using the 200 hour rule, and I know that rule is too broad and there are problems with it, but it isn't a bad place to start the discussion.
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