DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by JMason

Number of Attacks:
If I wasn't clear, he is duel wielding sabers. One is tied to the Weapon Bond, the other is not. He has an extra attack, and regularly uses rapid strike with the rules form MA allowing more than 2 attacks. Yes I got some of my numbers a bit off but he is still attacking 5 times (1 attack = 4 rapid strikes, +Extra attack).

I'm still not sure you're doing it right. First, the fact that he's dual-wielding should be irrelevant: You can either make a rapid strike or you can make a dual-wielding attack, not both. Second, you explicitly state that he uses ONE deceptive attack. You realize that this is the only attack that benefits from being deceptive, right? The remaining attacks, unless they are also given a separate, deceptive option, are defended against normally.

Enemies can retreat too. Enemies can have a high defense too. There are plenty of ways to defeat the swashbuckler. That doesn't seem to be the problem.

The problem, to my eye, is that the Knight is 50 points less than the Swashbuckler, and largely doesn't seem dissimilar (same race, same amount of ST. Why would he have the same amount of ST?) and that your casters have evolved to be support entirely.

Why? Alright, let's so something very basic: We create an opponent with a parry of 30. "WTF?" I can hear you saying, but here me out, as this is an exaggerated hypothetical. That huge parry will surely defeat the swashbuckler. There's no way for him to get past it (The first defense will be 25, then 29, 28, 27 and 26, assuming the monster is a weapon master with a two-handed weapon). He's unbeatable...

Except you can't parry an explosive fireball. You can't parry mind control. You can't parry Flesh to Stone. You can't parry a lightning bolt, and you can't even parry an ice dagger. The fact that this has never come up has both surprised me, and suggests to me that either the PCs haven't figured out this very basic concept yet, or everything you've thrown at them is more easily defeated by a quick blast of sword attacks than by spending 3 turns casting a fireball.

[scc]

From the sounds of things part of the issue is the other party members. Casters in GURPS really shouldn't have attack spells, they aren't very good bang for buck

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Alright, let's so something very basic: We create an opponent with a parry of 30. "WTF?" I can hear you saying, but here me out, as this is an exaggerated hypothetical.

I don't know about that. In Crakkerjakk's DF game, the penultimate fight in our most recent dungeon (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...key-yetis.html) featured one or two guys with skill-30, backed up by 3 or 4 spell casters, 20-30 assorted melee combatants, and something like 4 groups of 5-7 archers coming at us from different directions, including at least two groups from behind.

Against that, the PCs were less than 350 points each: a Holy Warrior, a Gargoyle Knight, a Mystic Knight, an Infernal Scout, and an RPM using wizard. We were challenged (at least two people driven into the negative HP range, several had crippling wounds, and the wizard ran out of charms and energy) but we triumphed.

Of course, we're a balanced party who expects to have all kinds of crazy challenges thrown at us, and we don't just rely on one guy with Extra Attack and high skill.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

I'm really not having any problems at all challenging the Swashbuckler in my current DF game. I even threw him a minor bone in the last session. As others have mentioned above, the SB is very, very good in situations that play to his strengths, but kind of narrowly-focused and easy to mess with if you take him out of his comfort zone. Mine mows through large numbers of straightforward melee enemies with ease, but didn't do anything to buy up his IQ, Per, or Will, so anything that challenges those is a major problem for him. One big earth elemental, which only had IT: Homogenous, not even IT: Diffuse, was enough to make him decide to leave the fight entirely to spin his wheels scouring the room for earth elemental-defeating McGuffins with his Search 10 while the maul-wielding Barbarian got a chance to shine in combat by smashing the thing with crushing damage. Also, the fight in a very tight tunnel that only he could fit into (against a horizontal creature of a size comfortable in the tunnel, which the other PCs totally peer-pressured him into exploring), where he could only use one arm and was effectively Prone the whole time, was kind of not fun for him.

ETA: With regard to Swashbucklers vs Knights specifically: The SB is the only "pure" melee class. He is supposed to outshine the Knight in melee in scenarios that do not specifically favor the Knight (eg: where Dodge doesn't matter and heavy armor is critical, a heavy barrage of missile fire where a large shield will help more than Dodge, etc), but is completely lacking in the social and war skills that the Knight has. If you have both a Swashbuckler and a Knight in the party, you can give the Knight chances to shine by throwing in chances to rally some peasant backup with a valiant speech, or to totally step in and own a vital Mass Combat situation by being the only guy in the party with the Strategy, Tactics, and Intelligence Analysis skills or even a decent default for them via Born War Leader Talent.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by JMason

Point Totals: Everyone started at 250, the SB is now over 320, as is the wizard and cleric. The Knight is a new comer and at 270.

Is the Knight going to ever "catch-up" to the rest of the party in xp or is he going to always be in a 50 pt hole?
If the Knight has a way to catch-up then he could boost his ST to be more effective.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by scc

From the sounds of things part of the issue is the other party members. Casters in GURPS really shouldn't have attack spells, they aren't very good bang for buck

Mages should always have a couple missile spells, even if they tend to only use the levels their skill allows them to cast for free. A 1d-1 Lightning Bolt is actually dangerous to the guy with 15 DR.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Mages should always have a couple missile spells, even if they tend to only use the levels their skill allows them to cast for free. A 1d-1 Lightning Bolt is actually dangerous to the guy with 15 metal DR.

Fixed that for you. ;]

Concussion is also a really good choice. Overall, though, you should probably look at DF Wizards as a utility character. Sure, you can stab somebody to death with a Swiss Army Knife, but it's really not usually the best tool for the job.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Fixed that for you. ;]

Concussion is also a really good choice. Overall, though, you should probably look at DF Wizards as a utility character. Sure, you can stab somebody to death with a Swiss Army Knife, but it's really not usually the best tool for the job.

Well, anything not made of stone likely won't have that much DR :p The non-stone things that take punishment are likely Diffuse targets, which means the Explosive Fireball is the projectile of choice!

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Mages should always have a couple missile spells, even if they tend to only use the levels their skill allows them to cast for free.

Except that you never get to cast a spell for free; it always costs at least 1 energy.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

Except that you never get to cast a spell for free; it always costs at least 1 energy.

Where are you getting that rule?