DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Where are you getting that rule?

What the hell?! Have I been doing it wrong this whole time!?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

What the hell?! Have I been doing it wrong this whole time!?

I'm afraid so:

Originally Posted by Basic p. 236

The better you know the spell, the less energy you need to cast it. If you know it well enough, you can cast it at no cost. Exception: Never reduce the cost of a Blocking spell; see Blocking Spells (p. 241).

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

What the hell?! Have I been doing it wrong this whole time!?

Sounds like it. High skill can make spells free in base GURPS Magic.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

Except that you never get to cast a spell for free; it always costs at least 1 energy.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Where are you getting that rule?

Originally Posted by Diomedes

What the hell?! Have I been doing it wrong this whole time!?

Mages and their ilk get the energy cost of the spell reduced by 1 at skill 15 and every 5 levels of skill above that (reduced by 2 at 20, by 3 at 25, etc). Assuming IQ 13 and Magery 3, this makes the typical 1-energy spell only cost 2 points to get it to 15. A lot of the prereqs you can leave at skill-14 for 1 point, but the spells he uses the most should be at 15 or better. This means that a 1d fireball (or concussion ball or acid ball) every round can be done for free, and it's 2 energy for a 3d fireball.

This is explained in the chapter on Magic in Characters and reiterated in both Magic and Thaumatology.

[Novembermike]

Yeah, a 50 point spread is pretty big. I don't think I'd ever allow two similar characters to have a point spread that high, it allows the higher point character to simply be a better version of the other character, which is the problem you're seeing. I probably wouldn't go over a 20 point spread in a DF style game where it's all about mechanics. There's a difference between a zombie game with a 100 point cop and a 150 point scientist and a combat heavy game with a 250 point armored fighter and a 300 point unarmored fighter.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by JMason

Part of the problem is that the group lacks the diversity to deal with other challenges. If the swashbuckler can't handle it, none can. The wizard and cleric specialize in some buffs and missile spells. The Knight is just a heavily armored fighter. None have magic items (they've sold quest rewards magic weapons).

As others have said, this is 95% of the problem. The party has a hammer and as long as all you give them are nails they're just going to buff the hammer. Give them stuff they aren't efficient at until they get efficient at it. Train them that doom children happen, erupting slime in a river happen, and bugbears happen, and they'll learn the cat-boy swashbuckler isn't particularly perceptive, water-loving, or good at turning demons and the rest of the party is going to have to step up.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Is the Knight going to ever "catch-up" to the rest of the party in xp or is he going to always be in a 50 pt hole?
If the Knight has a way to catch-up then he could boost his ST to be more effective.

In my old Champions game when i had a new character come in with a disparity, I would double his xp until he caught up with the group average. I would probably do that for GURPS now if I was in such a situation.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

As others have said, this is 95% of the problem. The party has a hammer and as long as all you give them are nails they're just going to buff the hammer. Give them stuff they aren't efficient at until they get efficient at it. Train them that doom children happen, erupting slime in a river happen, and bugbears happen, and they'll learn the cat-boy swashbuckler isn't particularly perceptive, water-loving, or good at turning demons and the rest of the party is going to have to step up.

The problem is that they've become so hyperfocused on the hammer that if you hand them a screw, or a bolt, they just fall apart on you. I'm not sure at this point that you can fix it.

BUT the ridiculously complex structure of GURPS Magic may just save you. Since every mage must take a long list of interesting effects to get to what he really wants, chances are the mages are more flexible than they realize. Look over those spell lists and look for challenges that those spells can fix (in a way that the Swashbuckler can't handle). This will sideline the swashbuckler, which is unfair, but this is a short-term thing. It's to teach the players to look for other solutions. Once they've begun to see those new tactical possibilities, then you can start to add more variety into your fights without it being quite so binary.

The other issue is you need to buff the knight. Is the party amenable to giving the Knight another 50 points? And if you do so, will he make his knight different, or is he so convinced of the supremacy of the SB's strategy that he'll just dump it all into skill?

[Nymdok]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

Let me have a look. I cant promise anything, but Im always willing to grind numbers through the machine and see if I cant find something.

Nymdok
p.s. It would be most efficient if you would send them in GCS format, but simple old PDFs will be fine.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I'm still not sure you're doing it right. First, the fact that he's dual-wielding should be irrelevant: You can either make a rapid strike or you can make a dual-wielding attack, not both. Second, you explicitly state that he uses ONE deceptive attack. You realize that this is the only attack that benefits from being deceptive, right? The remaining attacks, unless they are also given a separate, deceptive option, are defended against normally.

He has Extra Attack (not DWA), he's turning one of them into a rapid strike. I've never seen anything that implies this isn't allowed.

Yes, he only rolls one deceptive attack per turn, but that is usually enough. With his high skill he often makes this an called shot to the leg or other area to take the monster out even if it isn't killed outright.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Enemies can retreat too. Enemies can have a high defense too. There are plenty of ways to defeat the swashbuckler. That doesn't seem to be the problem.

The problem, to my eye, is that the Knight is 50 points less than the Swashbuckler, and largely doesn't seem dissimilar (same race, same amount of ST. Why would he have the same amount of ST?) and that your casters have evolved to be support entirely.

Why? Alright, let's so something very basic: We create an opponent with a parry of 30. "WTF?" I can hear you saying, but here me out, as this is an exaggerated hypothetical. That huge parry will surely defeat the swashbuckler. There's no way for him to get past it (The first defense will be 25, then 29, 28, 27 and 26, assuming the monster is a weapon master with a two-handed weapon). He's unbeatable...

Except you can't parry an explosive fireball. You can't parry mind control. You can't parry Flesh to Stone. You can't parry a lightning bolt, and you can't even parry an ice dagger. The fact that this has never come up has both surprised me, and suggests to me that either the PCs haven't figured out this very basic concept yet, or everything you've thrown at them is more easily defeated by a quick blast of sword attacks than by spending 3 turns casting a fireball.

The SB bought up his ST by quite a bit (3 or 4 levels) as he's earned CP. The Knight is much lower for a few reasons: He is a replacement character (my rules are that if you create a new character it starts at the prior character's starting value + half of the CP gained on the prior character), that player's job often keeps him out, so he has missed more session than the other characters.

High defense monsters tend to neutralize most of the group, not just the SB. The Knight uses an axe, so he's out. The Cleric likes to get into the action when done buffing, so he MIGHT throw a sunbolt, but is just as likely to draw his morning star. That leaves it up to the wizard who again, is a missile spell guy. So this leads to very slow combats that the players get tired of.

Still, maybe a few more "slogs" is what it will take to get them to see that maybe diversity is a good thing (since my repeated telling them hasn't worked out so well).

Originally Posted by scc

From the sounds of things part of the issue is the other party members. Casters in GURPS really shouldn't have attack spells, they aren't very good bang for buck

I've said this to my group, I've posted lists of useful spells, I've all but forbidden missile spells, but it hasn't gotten through.


Again, thanks for the advice everyone. I've got this thread open in one window and am working on my next dungeon in the other!