House Rules

[JCD]

That is considered a feature and not a bug of the system from the designers perspective.

They wanted guns to be less useful. It was supposed to be a toe to toe slug fest kind of game.

[Orlin]

Originally Posted by JCD

That is considered a feature and not a bug of the system from the designers perspective.

They wanted guns to be less useful. It was supposed to be a toe to toe slug fest kind of game.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Yes, and if I remember Beth's comments, that was a deliberate design decision. You know how, in a James Bond world, the pistol is the king of the battlefield? In the world of In Nomine, that role is held by the sword. A charging Malakite with a longsword will take a punk with a .45 seven times out of 10 because the sword is cooler. :)

I guess I can see that. I'm not crazy about it, but it certainly makes more sense. Ordinarily, I would never have looked at In Nomine, being such a huge GURPS enthusiast. Oddly enough, one of my ex-roommates told me that he enjoyed the IN System so much that he felt it worked far better than the GURPS conversion.

I can't really judge, but I've heard that GURPS IN characters have astronomical point costs. Like, in the 1500's -- and even if that's a tremendous overstatement, I've seen some of the costs that the Superiors Guides slap on Attunements and Distinctions. They're frighteningly expensive. All and all, I <3 the IN System as it is, but being picky about some things I think that the lack of power in firearms is something I'd change. If you want a cool sword, you can always buy an artifact; or better yet, quest for one.

Alright, back to House Rules! Surprisingly, in spite of my previous rant about firearms being more powerful, I actually like the reduced damage to undead. Maybe bashing damage, or damage from fire, should be increased?

On another note entirely, I thought of something else. The CPG introduces "Bonus Skills" for being human. I believe the breakdown is like this:

Area Knowledge/3 (Character's Hometown)
Knowledge/3 (Character's Profession)
Knowledge/2 (a hobby or minor area of interest)
Driving/1
Swimming/1

It goes on to say that Celestial's must learn everything about the world, but I got to thinking about this...and I think that there are some skills should come naturally to Celestials. So, here goes something:

Area Knowledge/3 (Heaven or Hell, as appropriate)
Knowledge/2 (Celestial Lore)
Skill/2 (Appropriate to Choir or Band, see below)

Seraphim: Detect Lies/2
Cherubim: Tracking/2
Ofanim: Acrobatics/1, Dodge/1
Elohim: Meditation/1, Emote/1
Kyriotates: Fast Talk/2
Malakim: Fighting/2 or Large Weapon (any)/2
Mercurians: Savoire-Faire/2

Balseraphs: Lying/2
Djinn: Tracking/1, Move Silently/1
Calabim: Fighting/1, and Large Weapon: Club/1
Habbalah: Emote/1, and Interrogation/1
Shedim: Fast Talk/2
Lilim: Seduction/3
Impudites: Savoire-Faire/2

Skill/1 (Appropriate to Servitor)

Blandine/Beleth: Dreaming
David: Construction
Dominic/Asmodeus: Interrogation
Eli: Artistry (Any)
Gabriel/Belial: Explosives
Janus/Valefor: Pickpocketing
Jean: Electronics
Jordi: Animal Handling
Laurence: Large Weapon: Sword
Marc/Lilith: Knowledge: Business (?)
Michael/Baal: Tactics
Novalis: Medicine
Yves/Kronos: Knowledge (Research)

Andrealphus: Seduction
Haagenti: Cooking
Kobal: Emote
Malphas: Lying (Or...maybe Small Weapon: Knife?)
Nybbas: Leadership
Saminga: Necromancy
Vapula: Computer Operation

Skill/1 (Appropriate to Musical Instrument)

Seraphim: Harps or Violins
Cherubim: Horned Instrument or Saxophone
Ofanim: Percussive Instruments
Elohim: Bells, Chimes or Xylophones
Kyriotates: Clarinets or Flutes
Malakim: Dulcimers, Bongos or Bass Drums
Mercurians: Singing

Balseraphs: Guitars or Violins
Djinn: Saxophones or Trumpets
Calabim: Percussive Instruments
Habbalah: Synthesizers
Habbalah: None
Shedim: Dancing
Impudites: Singing

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Orlin

It goes on to say that Celestial's must learn everything about the world, but I got to thinking about this...and I think that there are some skills should come naturally to Celestials. So, here goes something:

Area Knowledge/3 (Heaven or Hell, as appropriate)
Knowledge/2 (Celestial Lore)
Skill/2 (Appropriate to Choir or Band, see below)

Seraphim: Detect Lies/2
Cherubim: Tracking/2
Ofanim: Acrobatics/1, Dodge/1

Nice in concept, but that's not quite how I've played it. Ofanim, for instance, I've gone to Navigation rather than Acrobatics/Dodge. It seems more in concept to me as the Chariots of G-d to be able to find where they're going rather than dodge missiles.

With Seraphim I've used their resonance and the Detect Lies skill as two separate concepts. The resonance will tell them (usually) when something said has deceit behind it. The Skill functions both as a backup to that, and the ability to tell when the liar is keeping silent about something he should be talking about--which IIRC the resonance won't pick up.

That's just my take on my two favorites.

Originally Posted by Orlin

Skill/1 (Appropriate to Servitor)

Blandine/Beleth: Dreaming
David: Construction
Dominic/Asmodeus: Interrogation
Eli: Artistry (Any)
Gabriel/Belial: Explosives
Janus/Valefor: Pickpocketing
Jean: Electronics
Jordi: Animal Handling
Laurence: Large Weapon: Sword
Marc/Lilith: Knowledge: Business (?)
Michael/Baal: Tactics
Novalis: Medicine
Yves/Kronos: Knowledge (Research)

Andrealphus: Seduction
Haagenti: Cooking

--gigglesnort-- Since when does a Glutton wait for something to cook?
Novalis I'd argue herbalism rather than medicine. Otherwise I've left up the ones I agree with.

Originally Posted by Orlin

Skill/1 (Appropriate to Musical Instrument)

I'd disagree here too. A Seraph is a string instrument more than he plays one. He'd think in violin terms, but that wouldn't necessarily translate to getting the fingers in the right places.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

I'd disagree here too. A Seraph is a string instrument more than he plays one. He'd think in violin terms, but that wouldn't necessarily translate to getting the fingers in the right places.

Well, it helps if you originally had fingers...just saying.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Orlin

It goes on to say that Celestial's must learn everything about the world, but I got to thinking about this...and I think that there are some skills should come naturally to Celestials. So, here goes something:

Area Knowledge/3 (Heaven or Hell, as appropriate)
Knowledge/2 (Celestial Lore)
Skill/2 (Appropriate to Choir or Band, see below)

Seraphim: Detect Lies/2
Cherubim: Tracking/2 Not so in love with this one
Ofanim: Acrobatics/1, Dodge/1 Prefer thehERAtic's version for lack on munchkinery
Elohim: Meditation/1, Emote/1 How about Logic instead? Or a science?
Kyriotates: Fast Talk/2 Think this is better in Impudites. I'm tempted to use a Traveller standby Jack of All Trades to figure out how to deal
Malakim: Fighting/2 or Large Weapon (any)/2
Mercurians: Savoire-Faire/2

Balseraphs: Lying/2
Djinn: Tracking/1, Move Silently/1
Calabim: Fighting/1, and Large Weapon: Club/1
Habbalah: Emote/1, and Interrogation/1 How about Whip from their time in the Soul Yards?
Shedim: Fast Talk/2 Psychology?
Lilim: Seduction/3 Three? Like Lilim much? (Who doesn't...)
Impudites: Savoire-Faire/2 Or Fast Talk

I'm converting my IN character to GURPS and he's sick! I've already topped 800 pts and that's after trimming a hundred or so off his attributes and with bare bones skills.

[Orlin]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Nice in concept, but that's not quite how I've played it. Ofanim, for instance, I've gone to Navigation rather than Acrobatics/Dodge. It seems more in concept to me as the Chariots of G-d to be able to find where they're going rather than dodge missiles.

How do you classify Area Knowledge [Everything]? I suppose Knowledge (Navigation) would work, but I didn't think of it at the time. Ofanim can use their resonance to increase their Area Knowledge no matter where they are, so I felt like Acrobatics and Dodge were the two skills that best struck the balance between representing the choir and being the most useful.

Altogether, it wasn't easy making the selections. I'll be the first to admit that some of the skills felt like they were chosen arbitrarily. If you want to tweak or revise any of this, you have my blessing. I was working with the CPG and the Core Guide, so I was trying to work with skills that presented canonical descriptions.

Then again, knowledge skills can be almost anything according to cannon.

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

With Seraphim I've used their resonance and the Detect Lies skill as two separate concepts. The resonance will tell them (usually) when something said has deceit behind it. The Skill functions both as a backup to that, and the ability to tell when the liar is keeping silent about something he should be talking about--which IIRC the resonance won't pick up.

That's just my take on my two favorites.

I think we're in agreement here. If you give Seraphim a bonus to Detect Lies, you're effectively encouraging your players to see the differences between the skill and the resonance. The resonance is nice, but it isn't completely infallible. You can always fail a Perception roll.

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

--gigglesnort-- Since when does a Glutton wait for something to cook?

Unfortunately, "Hot Dog Eating" wasn't on the list of applicable skills. =P

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Novalis I'd argue herbalism rather than medicine

You'd be right to do so, but I wanted to try and avoid knowledge skills because I felt like I was just making stuff up. I kept thinking of the GURPS skill "Naturalist" for this one.

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

I'd disagree here too. A Seraph is a string instrument more than he plays one. He'd think in violin terms, but that wouldn't necessarily translate to getting the fingers in the right places.

I have mixed feelings about this. If you feel like the point toward the instrument of choice is better spent elsewhere, more power to you...but I was sort of attracted to the idea that the Celestials might have an actual affinity toward the instrument they represent in the Symphony. I also think that the writers were either confused about this, or possessed mixed feelings as well. I can't really be sure.

Look closely at the entries for "Manner and Appearance" for the different Bands and Choirs in the Core Guide. In some entries, the choir is described as a representation of an instrument. In others, however, the choir is described as having an affinity for the instrument. In some entries, the description covers both fronts. The Seraph is a perfect example:

"They prefer to think of themselves as stringed instruments, with a piercing sweetness and clarity that lingers when the note itself seems to be gone."

Your line of reasoning is demonstrated in that regard. But then, immediately in the next sentence...

"You haven't lived until you've heard a Seraph play a violin."
-Core Rulebook, page 94

Apparently, you don't need to have been created with opposable thumbs to be naturally adept at playing a guitar.

It was news to me, too.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

A charging Malakite with a longsword will take a punk with a .45 seven times out of 10 because the sword is cooler. :)

Yup! Exactly.

If you don't like that... Hm. Probably the trick wouldn't be to adjust it based on anything pertaining to the character (such as adding Corp/Eth/whatever Forces to the check digit), but instead, just give guns an innate damage bonus based on the type of gun.

Originally Posted by Orlin

I can't really judge, but I've heard that GURPS IN characters have astronomical point costs.

If you play GURPS In Nomine, you're basically in the territory of "supers" in many ways, yup. I mean, angels and demons here. Their abilities cost a lot! (Yeah, I had "sticker shock," too, and I was helping with the designs!) Just being a celestial is nearly 500 points, and each type has its own innate resonance, etc.

That said, the "starting level" characters are... *beth goes and checks the PDFs*

From the sample Servitors for the various Superior on e23:
Melody, Free Lilim: 633.5 points
Celine, Seraph of Protection: 677.5 points (-17.5 to make her conform to GIN starting levels)
Elealeh, Habbalite of the Game: 583.5 points (add 41.5 points to be a starting GURPS IN character)
Jade, Elohite of Creation: 830 points (remove a lot of DX and some ST, and do a few other adjustments as listed in the PDF, to make GIN-starting-level)
Efion, Mercurian of Revelation: 626 points (subtract 62 to bring into line for GIN starting character)

So pulling around the 650 level -- remembering that 480 of that is just being a celestial -- for the average starting character created in GURPS.

(Meanwhile, the NPCs from Feast of Blades converted to 908 points (Eileth), 885 points (Kadris), 1,330 points (Huzrael, a Captain), 344 points (a pack of demonlings; add 4-25 points if they get differentiated at all), 15 points (generic human policeman), 135.5 points (Roberto), 2,236 (Hamet, a Duke and Word-bound).)

Gotta run!

[JCD]

Why not give Novalis' people the skill of agriculture or agronomy?

[Azel]

i don't mind guns seeming particularly weak, or unarmed combat seeming to take so long. if you do the math it comes out a bit more realistic than imagined -- if you keep things closer to a human perspective.

a 14 round unarmed combat to unconsciousness is what, 14 rounds x 5 seconds = 70 seconds? a little over a minute? that's far shorter than anything in boxing and a lot closer to MMA. it's the dice rolling that can take away from the momentum of the game, and THAT is the GMs responsibility to guesstimate and shorten.

one could hurry it up that each contestant roll the fighting & dodge skill check each to count for 3 rounds, then do a CD roll off between atttack-dodge, or whatever thing that speeds up a rather obvious result. if they want to fly through the air like Wu Li masters and role play the scene, more power to them, roll out the pyrotechnic fun. and if you still need to speed things up because combat is monopolizing time, you can delegate the judging/minutes-keeping to a currently idle player (whom you trust) and switch scenes to players who have been waiting too long on the side...

and about guns, most humans are pretty unexceptional. 5 forces only go so far, so the usual max for human Corporeal forces would be 3, with 1~2 being the norm. with most humans being above-average and less, that's roughly 8 HP or less, with 2~6 being common averages. that's a well aimed gunshot or three, pretty close to what we normally expect it takes to fell a healthy human, let alone children and elderly. any human seeing someone take what average celestials can take in gunshots should be stunned by the miraculous, if not downright frightening, result... which again brings unwanted attention.

what house rule i run with is each point of Disturbance is no longer 1 yard, but 10 yards. this makes suburbia and even some rural communities no longer a demonic playground free of repercussions. taking the average celestial's base increment chance to hear a human murder goes from (13 pts x 3 Celestial forces =) 39 yds base increment, up to a much more workable 390 yds. that's roughly still under a quarter mile, but far better to bring the necessity of "Cold War Silence" into starker relief. figuring out roll check stays the same, i.e. 13+6=19, just multiply extra points over auto success (and on down as necessary) against base increment distance. with the above, suddenly you get closer to under 2 1/4 miles distance to hear a murder. considering that i still live in a metro and it takes me 1.75 miles to reach the nearest store for a gallon of milk, i don't think this is unreasonable at all. it also makes denser urban areas suddenly areas crucial for covert operations, which handily makes player challenges galore for GMs to role play.

i also use Routine Actions for humans from Corporeal Player's Guide, along with Extra Skill points for humans. i tend to give "Mother Tongue"/3 & Know: "Hometown"/3 just for being alive as a human. then i create a pool of expected survival skills for the locale, giving players 4 pts to spend here, and then a pool of profession skills with another 4 pts to spend there.

i'd also give non-humans who have been playing a longer time in the campaign the chance to develop some Routine Actions for their most used skills. however, this requires some skill checkoffs each session and observant GM discretion. i'd target less game-breaking skills first for the advantage (eyes combat skills alarmingly) and always keep in mind that Routine Actions are completely up to GM discretion for each and every use.

[Rocket Man]

Inspired by an earlier house rule of mine:

Weak Roles

By the rules as written, a Role level must be at least the Status level of the "secret ID" or higher. (Thus a Status 4 identity must have at least a Role 4 asociated with it.) But Heaven and Hell sometimes have to put celestials in the field without as much preparation as they'd like. The resulting "weak Roles" can be useful ... but risky.

Under this rule, a celestial may buy any Role level he wants, regardless of Status. However, if the Role level is lower than the Status, the celestial must make a weekly "Role check" to see if any problems crop up. Roll against Corporeal Forces plus Role level MINUS the difference between your Status and Role levels. A failed roll means that someone has turned up a discrepancy that the celestial must address immediately -- or else lose the Role.

EXAMPLE: Jennifer Markowitz, a trusted advisor to Senator Sam, is a 9-Force celestial with 4 Corporeal Forces, a level 4 Status identity and only a level 2 Role (papered over with various excuses such as "the orphanage burned down and the records were lost.") Each week, she must roll a Role check of 4+2-2=4 or less or else her Role is at risk. This week, she rolls a 5; a reporter has discovered that the college she graduated from with honors has no record of her actually registering for any classes. Jennifer needs to think of a good explanation before the next issue of Newsweek hits the stands ....

Note that after a long period of patching these kinds of holes, a Role will start to naturally "upgrade." For every (8 minus Corporeal Forces) months spent doing this, the Role will improve by one level.