12-18-2018, 04:47 PM | #101 | |||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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The rule that you can't parry bullets, lasers, or (non limited) innate attacks regardless of the "game effect/explanation" is explicit in the rule book. We can look it up, quote it, then apply it rather unambiguously. That gun ammo doesn't normally need to be collected or that arrows can be found and used, is a game setting thing much like "normal" gravity or deciding that the setting will be 1699. No gravity or being 1699 instead of 2018, will also limit your choices, but the game system has no bias to those choices nor does it assign point values for them. Quote:
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Now obviously, creating gold you can sell would require additional advantages, but much like your aura a GM should point that out and require you to actually pay for the benefits you want to receive in play. Quote:
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Conversely, I've pointed out time and time again how you're trying to justify additional advantages through a combination of enhancements that don't have any of the effects you want individually so they certainly haven't been priced to be some super-duper-secret combo that powers you up when you buy them as a set. Quote:
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12-18-2018, 05:36 PM | #102 | ||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Obviously it wasn't priced on the idea that you could double the amount of damage you're blocking. Quote:
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12-18-2018, 05:59 PM | #103 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Defensive Auras
DR is really overpriced compared to Innate Attacks though. 2d of crushing damage costs 10 CP and does a maximum 12 points of damage. 12 points of DR with Crushing Only costs 36 CP. DR ends up being almost four times as expensive as the average attack that it is meant to protect against.
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12-18-2018, 11:31 PM | #104 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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A "point defense" is exactly what attacking an area with a persistant IA (or switching on an Aura AE) does: it launches attacks at targets within the designated area. Those attacks may not do enough damage to destroy or knock around a target, and they may not hit in time to stop the target from getting to the vulnerable center (there would be a delay between a target entering an area and them being affected by it with Onset) but they do shoot. Quote:
You can attack objects, weapons and ammo are objects. Quote:
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Plus you have "power block" which can double DR Last edited by Plane; 12-18-2018 at 11:35 PM. |
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12-19-2018, 06:42 AM | #105 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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As for the analysis above, as attack dice increase it becomes less likely you'll roll extremely high or low. With 2d, you only have a 1/36 chance of rolling 12 damage. With 3d the chance drops to 1/216. It's much more reasonable to use average damage when you get to 2d or higher. DR 7 (Crushing only -40%) would be 21 points. Yes, that's twice as expensive but you can usually such ignore attacks without taking an action or using up a defense making it worth significantly more than the attack. Furthermore, if you are using the optional "Power Block" rules, you can double your effective DR with a defense making the cost of the attack similar to the cost of the DR when you both use an action for the ability and both make rolls to succeed with your ability. |
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12-19-2018, 07:30 AM | #106 | ||||||||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
This was a reply to show that some things are GM choices for their setting while other things are rules you can look up in a rule book.
Waits are covered in Basic. Power Parries are covered in Powers. Deciding that it's 1699 for your game is a GM setting choice. Deciding that bullets can't be reused after being shot, but arrows can is a setting choice. Deciding that gravity is "earth standard" rather than higher or lower is a setting choice. Quote:
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What I've stated is that the vector for damage when someone else has already rolled to hit you is not usually a valid target. Quote:
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I've covered why it's unbalanced to use the damage value (like a power parry would), why it's unbalanced to use knockback, and why it's unbalanced to treat it like a material you can incinerate. Once you stat out a few examples, I suspect you'll see why it's a point crock. Quote:
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Wait is a specific game term for a specific maneuver that has specific rules. You can't ignore half what you don't like to use the other half and say you're following RAW. Knockback is powerful, but it's not used in the way you've described nor are abilities priced to use knockback in that way. I've demonstrated with points and enhancements your interpretation relies on very specific combinations working in ways that aren't in their description (a lot of "well it should work like this" reasoning on your part). What your suggesting isn't bad, it's just not something in the rules. If you want to make it part of your house rule, that's fine. I'd suggest adjusting some costs to reflect that KB is a king defense against many (perhaps most) attacks. "Area Aura" becomes a new enhancement that you can create a rule of thumb defensive value for and appropriately assign a cost to it. Quote:
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When you take modifiers with GURPS, you get the sum of all the abilities those modifiers provide. You don't get new secret "collect them all" bonus abilities. Quote:
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12-19-2018, 11:50 AM | #107 | |||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Rules equate taking 1 second to move through 1 yard of AE and 99 yards of AE using Move 100 even though the latter should take 99x as long and be 99x as much exposure. If the basic rules ("take damage once per second") assume taking a 1 yard step (the usual combat tactic) a good house rule to more realistically treat AE exposure (and cut down on impact to speedsters) would be "multiply damage by yards moved, then divide by Top Speed, to determine damage". So someone who crossed a 1d AE with a top speed of 5 would take (1d*5/5) if they traveled a full 5 yards, but only (1d*2/5) if they only traveled through 2 yards. Of course, if someone remained in the AE at the end of their turn, they should take the full damage, the fractioning assumes they're running in and out. Bullets, which travel with a Top Speed of 350 (pistols) or 600 (Rifles) would only suffer 1/350 or 1/600 per yard of AE they traveled through, using this house rule. Slower projectiles (I'm not sure how we determine the speed of arrows or thrown objects) would be lower Top Speeds and lower fractions. Quote:
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Your idea of giving "attacks" some unique property of allowing characters/objects to bypass a Knockback Aura leads to absurd benefits like dwarves being able to toss each other through a Wind Tunnel they could never run up. Whether you enter an AE under your own power or under another's power doesn't delay when instant effects take effect. Quote:
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When you take modifiers with GURPS, you get the sum of all the abilities those modifiers provide. You don't get new secret "collect them all" bonus abilities. Quote:
C and C are numbered continuously, it's 1 book split into 2. That's for your benefit, if you wanted to realistically house rule Knocback to be less effective. Quote:
Let's look at the "Dropping" skill (B189) as an example. You roll this as soon as you drop something to see if you targeted properly. B431 discusses "Terminal Velocity" for humans on earth being 100 on a swan dive, 60 if spread-eagled. This means if a flying gargoyle dropped a human from 600 yards up (1800 feet) even though they would make their Dropping skill roll to hit right away, the human would not reach the target for 6 (swan) to 10 (eagle) seconds. So there can clearly be a delay between the time an attack roll is made and between when the attacking implement arrives to its target, during which to compromise the implement. During that time, it would be possible to shoot at the dropped/falling human (B550 at either -8 or -10 based on speed alone, even more based on distance added). If you were using Burning Attack you could incinerate them so there's nothing left to fall on people except a bunch of inconsequential ashes that spread in the wind. If you were using a non-wounding Crushing Attack, if you were firing from below and inflicted 800 points of damage against an HP 10 human (enough to cause 100 yards of knockback) you are adding at least 1 second of falling time, and this would be enough to potentially "juggle" them because it will take another second to recoup that distance. If you were firing from the side, that would obviously add a horizontal vector to change the hex being targeted below. Auras and Persistents (and Uncontrollables) don't care about their owner's maneuvers once active. Quote:
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and even in that case, that 1 yard would only help you if the distance from Cap to you is 1 yard shy of the 1/2D or Max barriers, because all knockback does (as MA clarifies) is causes you to have to reuse some of your velocity to re-cross the same space you were knocked back through. Last edited by Plane; 12-19-2018 at 11:57 AM. |
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12-19-2018, 01:09 PM | #108 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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You've tried to bypass this rule with a lot of fancy world 'spaining, but none of the enhancements you've mentioned ever provide that utility. I get that you feel the combination should even if none of the components do, but that's not how enhancements stack. Quote:
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Furthermore, you have to contrast this with the virtual immunity you're providing to many slow moving projectiles and (depending on which damage reduction you're favoring this post) many faster ones. Quote:
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What you've built, however, does not. Let's look at the components Aura -> triggers on impact, doesn't stop damage. Area -> affects what's in it as "targets" (not components), doesn't say anything about stopping incoming attacks. Persistent -> duration, doesn't affect damage. None of the enhancements on their own would stop an attack, agreed? Yet somehow you're suggesting that if you combine two they work like DR or Warp? Do they do that consistently for all abilities or is that special for Innate Attack in your mind? Quote:
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Here's another thought. Since you took Aura, Area, and Melee, perhaps it generates an effect only *after* you're struck rather than creating a field around you? After all, Aura says if the weapon strikes you, your ability attacks the weapon. Neither Area nor your ability has a duration to keep it active, so it's not a field around you. Worse, you can't activate your Area without satisfying the "melee" limitation, so duration would only work for that length of time after you struck someone first! That's the problem with trying to work backwards figuring out what the modifiers do rather than working forwards and figuring out what you should buy to represent the ability. Quote:
As for KB, in the real world, slowing down the momentum of anything will tend to reduce the impact. If your proposed solution doesn't account for that, you've already failed to make things more realistic. Last edited by naloth; 12-19-2018 at 01:12 PM. |
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12-19-2018, 10:28 PM | #109 | ||||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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There is no rule being bypassed: Auras in their basic nature don't damage something before it arrives at the source of the Aura. A 4th option that might bypass this could be "Time-Spanning". What A/AH/my consensus is though, is that since objects enter the AE before objects hit the target, the AE hits the object before the object his the AE middle. Quote:
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Rounds which stay in the body (presumably any that don't overpenetrate) which can eventually cause poison should be priced as some kind of long-exposure Toxic Followup. The example IA guns in Powers we can assume to be using some kind of non-toxic metal jacket. Quote:
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Sure, there are legal ways of doing that. Active Defenses comes to mind. You could even build an ability that does what you're suggesting. Quote:
Persistent on AE creates a damaging field which immediately damages things that enter it, and will do so again every second thereafter so long as it lasts. If you destroy an object as soon as it comes it, it can't do anything after that. I'd suggest you attack with AE in turn: if an AE (aura or persistent) destroys an incoming grenade and it's a grenade that explodes when destroyed, it will not stop the explosion like DR would. Quote:
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Nothing special is needed for that, your basic punch or shove can do that. AEs let that be done to an area instead of a particular target. Making it persistent or an aura means the power will auto-attack like Spines against those who make contact with the area (not with you) so you don't need to make any maneuvers. Quote:
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Please specify "AE aura" or "non-AE aura" so I know what you're referring to. Quote:
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If you had more advanced house rules (say for 1/4 somewhere between 1/2 D and Max, 3/4 somewhere between 1/2D and 0) you could use them here too. |
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12-20-2018, 04:55 AM | #110 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Defensive Auras
Actually, Max takes into account gravitational drop while 1/2D takes into account losses caused by air resistance. Since air resistance is a product of the square of the velocity, halving velocity (and therefore damage) quarters air resistance, meaning that bullets have substantial kinetic energy remaining by the time that gravity pulls them into the ground (which is why bullets fired from elevated positions are lethal from much further away than one would expect). Of course, bullets also have some lift to counter gravitational drop, which is why ballistics can be quite complicated.
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aura of power, persistent |
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