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Old 12-18-2018, 04:47 PM   #101
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If someone throws a rock, I can pick it up and throw it back at them, but I can't pick up a bullet and fire it back even if I had a gun because the casing and gunpowder is used up. These 'world' effects do effect the 'mechanics' of what you can do in combat.
There's a reoccurring pattern of mixing what I say, what the rules say, and what's going on in the game world rather haphazardly.

The rule that you can't parry bullets, lasers, or (non limited) innate attacks regardless of the "game effect/explanation" is explicit in the rule book. We can look it up, quote it, then apply it rather unambiguously.

That gun ammo doesn't normally need to be collected or that arrows can be found and used, is a game setting thing much like "normal" gravity or deciding that the setting will be 1699. No gravity or being 1699 instead of 2018, will also limit your choices, but the game system has no bias to those choices nor does it assign point values for them.

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B557 "Use the table below to determine the HP of nonliving artifacts." Bullets are NLAs.
You said "bullets are just an example of an object with HP which can be knocked back", when in fact we are discussing if it's reasonable to apply the knock back rules to bullets in the way you're suggesting. They aren't provided as an example by anyone else or in any rule book, so why would you try to suggest they are the example that proves your assertion?

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In that case the GM has assigned a mass of X for the power cells, and 0 mass for the attack.
Which underscores that Limited Use doesn't imply what goes from point A to point B to do damage has mass.

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I should have said poison, not "infect", sorry. Kromm in 2012: "I require bullet removal for two reasons: (1) to move the patient safely over any distance unless you have a fancy stretcher, since any jarring motion might dislodge the slug and cause complications, and (2) to avoid severe penalties to the HT roll for infection."
Provided your activities take place in a jungle away from care, this is pretty relevant... Of course, that still isn't a reasonable trade off for anyone spending a pittance in points to be nearly immune to projectiles.

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I don't think that would help with tumbling bullet fragments or lead poisoning.
First off, are you suggesting that it's a drawback of the attack that Auras basically stop it? If so, why should "Burn" auras suck compared to "Crushing" auras for the same point cost? Why should "Crushing" auras be able to double it's effective protectiveness for +20% while Burn cannot?

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I think we need to clarify whether house rules means following book instructions to have the GM determine things (like the weight of ammo used for Fast Reload) and introducing out-of-book instructions.
When I say "house rules" I do not mean GM decisions pertaining to setting or adjudication of ambiguous things. I refer to the choice to ignore or alter a rule to make it fit their game better. GURPS is a toolkit and some of the tools aren't intended to be used at certain times or even together.

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If your attack leaves matter behind which wasn't at your target destination before, that sounds like what Create covers. If you leave behind matter that already exists, that's probably Elemental. The difference between "I create water out of a vacuum and fire ice shards from it" vs "I collect water from the atmosphere and fire ice shards from it".
Nah, read both Powers and Characters. It's pretty obvious that leaving behind residue isn't "Create". Unwanted residue even constitutes a Nuisance Effect.

Now obviously, creating gold you can sell would require additional advantages, but much like your aura a GM should point that out and require you to actually pay for the benefits you want to receive in play.

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Why would it generally be done with non-thrusting weapons? Staffs seem like a common enough weapon.
Staffs are usually planted or thrusted for a stop-thrust. The damage bonus is essentially from the charger adding force by impaling them self.

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I'm saying if you want make Aura/Persistent less powerful, you can recognize they function like a Wait interruption, and use Charging Foes guidelines to de-power their ability to wreck incoming projectiles via knockback. Barring that then they remain uber.
Conversely, I can recognize that Wait is a maneuver with very specific rules. Aura doesn't reference them, nor does Wait reference Aura. Advantages can't take maneuvers and there's nowhere in any book that you've referenced that even implies that Aura will have an impact on an Innate Attack regardless of the explanation.

Conversely, I've pointed out time and time again how you're trying to justify additional advantages through a combination of enhancements that don't have any of the effects you want individually so they certainly haven't been priced to be some super-duper-secret combo that powers you up when you buy them as a set.

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Knockback is not Flight, DR or Teleportation. There is some similarity in what thy can do, but it isn't the same thing. Those 3 things do not care about the ST/HP of their targets or whether they are Skinny/Fat, while, Knockback does.
A good example of why you can't just conflate 4 different traits to assist feature A to trait B.

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Hitting things when they enter an area is how AE+Persistent or AE+Aura work. Knocking things back when they are hit is how Knockback works. Crossing intervening space is how non-Malediction / non-SAe Innate Attacks work.
You've missed the point entirely - which is that neither Area nor Aura is intended to provide a point defense against missiles. If it was it would be mentioned somewhere in the text. You wouldn't have to pull random sentences from 4 scattered from 4-5 different rule books to try to justify the effect on some types of attacks.
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:36 PM   #102
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Basically the idea that if you didn't want to treat Aura as making a free attack, you could INSTEAD house rule it functioning as a free Power Parry, if you didn't like how the RAW worked.
The problem is that you don't normally get to attack attacks... Worse what if two people with 1 yard auras charged each other? Aura attack aura, attack aura, that attacks aura, ahhhhhh

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DR is different than Power Parry.
Sure, it doesn't take an action. It passively intercepts damage you would take.

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You're talking about the difference between "enough energy to redirect" vs "enough energy to incinerate".
Yes, to point out the absurdity of suggesting that would cost less to deflect attacks, especially since doubling knockback is only +20%.

Obviously it wasn't priced on the idea that you could double the amount of damage you're blocking.

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B484 "Knockdown and Stunning: A nonsentient artifact ignores these effects".
That applies to things you would stat out (read the intro on B483). Bullets aren't really intact after shot, so statting out the slug (machine trait an all) seems rather silly.

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If Range is 500, a pistol round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 250 yards per second. If Range is 1200 a rifle round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 600 yards per second.
You realize that pretty much any time you've resorted to creating your own equations to create specific powers, you've departed into making your own rules.

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Exactly. It's not a big deal.
Sure, we're either back to "this is below the resolution and intent" of the game system or to handling it in a way that doesn't break things.

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Yay for magnets. Whether or not you are merely absorbing the damage (DR) or knocking weapons back (Crushing Aura) matters a lot in respect to things like grenades, they're mechanically different.
If the end effect is to reduce the amount of damage you take, then mechanically it's DR regardless of where the bullet ends up. Furthermore, creating a cheaper way to stop projectiles that has other benefits sounds like a point crock.

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Another problem is Armor Divisors. Having an Armor Divisor on your attacks doesn't allow you to ignore Knockback. DR cares about damages of enemies' attacks while Knockback cares about enemies' HPs. "Reflection" also guarantees you'll knock the attack ALL the way back if you manage to stop it, whereas Knockback has no such guarantee.
There are plenty of ways to handle all of that if it's desired. The rules even cover how it works by default, so it's easy to address what we would be altering.
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:59 PM   #103
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defensive Auras

DR is really overpriced compared to Innate Attacks though. 2d of crushing damage costs 10 CP and does a maximum 12 points of damage. 12 points of DR with Crushing Only costs 36 CP. DR ends up being almost four times as expensive as the average attack that it is meant to protect against.
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:31 PM   #104
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
The rule that you can't parry bullets, lasers, or (non limited) innate attacks regardless of the "game effect/explanation" is explicit in the rule book. We can look it up, quote it, then apply it rather unambiguously.
To what? Waits? Power Parries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
the game system has no bias to those choices nor does it assign point values for them.
If you were designing a bow and arrow as an Innate Attack, then Limited Use would have a point value. Limited use is based solely on shots before reload (1 for bows) and the value doesn't waver regardless of how much arrows cost or how hard they are to build or find, but the GM does still effectively determine those values.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You said "bullets are just an example of an object with HP which can be knocked back", when in fact we are discussing if it's reasonable to apply the knock back rules to bullets in the way you're suggesting. They aren't provided as an example by anyone else or in any rule book, so why would you try to suggest they are the example that proves your assertion?
We have generalized rules for applying knockback to anything. There's probably no in-book examples for applying knockback for an NPC who kicked a watermelon, but I'm still confident it would happen. Watermelons, like bullets, are objects, and subject to knockback whether they are stationary, rolling down a hill, falling on you, thrown at you, or catapulted at you.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Which underscores that Limited Use doesn't imply what goes from point A to point B to do damage has mass.
True, but we know that some examples of it (bullets, arrows) do have mass. That's part of GM judgment discerning the impact of that modifier.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Provided your activities take place in a jungle away from care, this is pretty relevant... Of course, that still isn't a reasonable trade off for anyone spending a pittance in points to be nearly immune to projectiles.
Please price out this pittance up this pittance with DR you think will do a comparable job. Howl's original ability was cheaper due to being uncontrollable, psychokinetic and limited to metal obects, we should keep in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
First off, are you suggesting that it's a drawback of the attack that Auras basically stop it?
"Auras" don't alter object location, knockback does. Auras can be for forms of Innate Attack which do not inflict knockback.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
why should "Burn" auras suck compared to "Crushing" auras for the same point cost?
Burning Attack has benefits that Crushing Attack lacks. If it "sucks" because it can't do knockback or blunt trauma against flexible DR, that's just part of the game design.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Why should "Crushing" auras be able to double it's effective protectiveness for +20% while Burn cannot?
Use those points to buy increased damage to destroy incoming objects outright? Knockback is not the only way to stop an enemy, damage also works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
When I say "house rules" I do not mean GM decisions pertaining to setting or adjudication of ambiguous things. I refer to the choice to ignore or alter a rule to make it fit their game better. GURPS is a toolkit and some of the tools aren't intended to be used at certain times or even together.
I don't think I'm altering anything, knockback and damage apply as soon as you enter an active ongoing AE.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Nah, read both Powers and Characters. It's pretty obvious that leaving behind residue isn't "Create". Unwanted residue even constitutes a Nuisance Effect.
There's a difference between "yuck, residue" and "this can poison my enemies if left in them". The representation of guns in Powers is very generalized and doesn't go into all possible considerations.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Staffs are usually planted or thrusted for a stop-thrust. The damage bonus is essentially from the charger adding force by impaling them self.
Yes. Do you know if there are rules for planting weapons like that instead of using arm movements?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Conversely, I can recognize that Wait is a maneuver with very specific rules. Aura doesn't reference them, nor does Wait reference Aura.
Wait is simply explaining common sense, that knockback is a vector against a vector and that you shouldn't simply end the forward movement. If you want to end it, that makes Knockback very powerful, which you seem to be against.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
there's nowhere in any book that you've referenced that even implies that Aura will have an impact on an Innate Attack regardless of the explanation.
Items have HP, Knockback can move things with HP. Bullets are items. If it is an "Itemless Innate Attack" then Knockback will not affect it.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I've pointed out time and time again how you're trying to justify additional advantages through a combination of enhancements
You keep insisting I'm applying DR, but I'm only talking about how Knockback effectively increases the distance to travel.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
they certainly haven't been priced to be some super-duper-secret combo that powers you up when you buy them as a set.
I'm sure a lot of "secret combos" are beneficial beyond what some people think they're worth.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You've missed the point entirely - which is that neither Area nor Aura is intended to provide a point defense against missiles. If it was it would be mentioned somewhere in the text.
That every possible way different modifiers can interact for every variation of an advantage isn't given explicit examples does not make those lack of examples any sort of argument against following the rules to determine how they interact.

A "point defense" is exactly what attacking an area with a persistant IA (or switching on an Aura AE) does: it launches attacks at targets within the designated area.

Those attacks may not do enough damage to destroy or knock around a target, and they may not hit in time to stop the target from getting to the vulnerable center (there would be a delay between a target entering an area and them being affected by it with Onset) but they do shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You wouldn't have to pull random sentences from 4 scattered from 4-5 different rule books to try to justify the effect on some types of attacks.
Only 2 books: Basic Set for how Knockback works, Power-Ups 4 for allowing Aura/AE combination. You can do it with just the basic set using a Persistent AE. The difference there is you set up an area ahead of time which stays put (unless you also take Mobile) instead of being centered on you as you move.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
The problem is that you don't normally get to attack attacks...
You can attack objects, weapons and ammo are objects.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Worse what if two people with 1 yard auras charged each other? Aura attack aura, attack aura, that attacks aura, ahhhhhh
Can you point out an example of a non-Bombardment AE being defined as physical objects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
to point out the absurdity of suggesting that would cost less to deflect attacks, especially since doubling knockback is only +20%.
Why is it absurd that redirecting an attack is easier to destroy the attacking implement? You can parry a fist with much less ST than it takes to destroy that fist in a single punch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Obviously it wasn't priced on the idea that you could double the amount of damage you're blocking.
That's not how Range works. Either you reduce full damage to half (moving something from less than 1/2D to more than 1/2D) or you reduce half damage to none (move beyond Max).

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That applies to things you would stat out (read the intro on B483). Bullets aren't really intact after shot, so statting out the slug (machine trait an all) seems rather silly.
Slugs are still objects.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If the end effect is to reduce the amount of damage you take, then mechanically it's DR
No, because Injury Tolerance is not DR, nor is dodging with Warp.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
creating a cheaper way to stop projectiles that has other benefits sounds like a point crock.
You keep insisting it's cheaper, I challenge you to line up some examples where you think IA completely outperforms equivalently priced DR. I think I can show you where it will not.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
DR is really overpriced compared to Innate Attacks though. 2d of crushing damage costs 10 CP and does a maximum 12 points of damage. 12 points of DR with Crushing Only costs 36 CP. DR ends up being almost four times as expensive as the average attack that it is meant to protect against.
Innate Attacks can miss or be dodged (unless you want to use Power Block to double the DR), they take attacks to perform, can miss and hit your allies, etc. DR will protect against multiple attackers, and you're talking about countering rare maximum damage. DR 7 stops the average of 2d and costs base 35 compared to the base 60 for 12. Using Crushing as an example is unfortunate since the DR will protect you after it's possible halved by Roll With Blow.

Plus you have "power block" which can double DR

Last edited by Plane; 12-18-2018 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:42 AM   #105
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
DR is really overpriced compared to Innate Attacks though. 2d of crushing damage costs 10 CP and does a maximum 12 points of damage. 12 points of DR with Crushing Only costs 36 CP. DR ends up being almost four times as expensive as the average attack that it is meant to protect against.
That's actually a design choice, which was discussed back in the earlier days of the board. I've kind of come around to the pricing over time, whereas I was accustom to DR being 3/point under 3e. I'd prefer for 5/lvl that "Force Field" was built in (rather than effectively making that 6/lvl), but it's an easy enough thing to discuss.

As for the analysis above, as attack dice increase it becomes less likely you'll roll extremely high or low. With 2d, you only have a 1/36 chance of rolling 12 damage. With 3d the chance drops to 1/216. It's much more reasonable to use average damage when you get to 2d or higher.

DR 7 (Crushing only -40%) would be 21 points. Yes, that's twice as expensive but you can usually such ignore attacks without taking an action or using up a defense making it worth significantly more than the attack. Furthermore, if you are using the optional "Power Block" rules, you can double your effective DR with a defense making the cost of the attack similar to the cost of the DR when you both use an action for the ability and both make rolls to succeed with your ability.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:30 AM   #106
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
To what? Waits? Power Parries?
This was a reply to show that some things are GM choices for their setting while other things are rules you can look up in a rule book.

Waits are covered in Basic. Power Parries are covered in Powers. Deciding that it's 1699 for your game is a GM setting choice. Deciding that bullets can't be reused after being shot, but arrows can is a setting choice. Deciding that gravity is "earth standard" rather than higher or lower is a setting choice.

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If you were designing a bow and arrow as an Innate Attack, then Limited Use would have a point value. Limited use is based solely on shots before reload (1 for bows) and the value doesn't waver regardless of how much arrows cost or how hard they are to build or find, but the GM does still effectively determine those values.
Sure. The limitation is a game mechanic. The application of that can be a setting choice. A different GM could allow automatic bows that have a clip mechanism and arrows that aren't reused resulting in a different limitation value.

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We have generalized rules for applying knockback to anything. There's probably no in-book examples for applying knockback for an NPC who kicked a watermelon, but I'm still confident it would happen. Watermelons, like bullets, are objects, and subject to knockback whether they are stationary, rolling down a hill, falling on you, thrown at you, or catapulted at you.
Sure, and you can use those for kicking a bullet if that comes up. That comes under the rules for you initiating an attack on a target and resolving it.

What I've stated is that the vector for damage when someone else has already rolled to hit you is not usually a valid target.

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True, but we know that some examples of it (bullets, arrows) do have mass. That's part of GM judgment discerning the impact of that modifier.
This goes back to how it's not a general game rule, but something you're doing since you feel it should work a certain way. That's fine, but rather than penalize other abilities I'd suggest you have the PC buying the oddball ability pay for what benefits he's getting.

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Please price out this pittance up this pittance with DR you think will do a comparable job. Howl's original ability was cheaper due to being uncontrollable, psychokinetic and limited to metal obects, we should keep in mind.
I did, and depending on how you handle the damage it could be a fraction of the DR cost.

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"Auras" don't alter object location, knockback does. Auras can be for forms of Innate Attack which do not inflict knockback.
A good reason why this ruling is horribly unbalanced. Some Auras would benefit from it greatly while others wouldn't see any improvement, even though the cost between the auras might be the same.

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Burning Attack has benefits that Crushing Attack lacks. If it "sucks" because it can't do knockback or blunt trauma against flexible DR, that's just part of the game design.
Yes, Burning attacks have other benefits. No, those other benefits were not weighed against Crushing attacks providing the protection you've described.

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Use those points to buy increased damage to destroy incoming objects outright? Knockback is not the only way to stop an enemy, damage also works.
Detail exactly what you're suggesting, especially since the rule books don't cover this. Provide examples of how you would handle a guy with a flaming 1 yard aura or a crushing 1 yard aura against guns, knives, a charging sumo, etc.

I've covered why it's unbalanced to use the damage value (like a power parry would), why it's unbalanced to use knockback, and why it's unbalanced to treat it like a material you can incinerate. Once you stat out a few examples, I suspect you'll see why it's a point crock.

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There's a difference between "yuck, residue" and "this can poison my enemies if left in them". The representation of guns in Powers is very generalized and doesn't go into all possible considerations.
Yes, so? Bleeding to death is just as much of a risk if you're in the jungle without proper care as being poisoned by a a bullet. Infection in a jungle is dangerous from any wound. The common factor is being far away from proper medical care in an environment where the wound will fester and the damage cannot be properly treated. It's not because bullets are intrinsically more dangerous.

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Yes. Do you know if there are rules for planting weapons like that instead of using arm movements?
Not offhand. I recall reading some, but it might have been 3e instead of 4e.

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Wait is simply explaining common sense, that knockback is a vector against a vector and that you shouldn't simply end the forward movement. If you want to end it, that makes Knockback very powerful, which you seem to be against.
and here I thought I was explaining common sense!

Wait is a specific game term for a specific maneuver that has specific rules. You can't ignore half what you don't like to use the other half and say you're following RAW.

Knockback is powerful, but it's not used in the way you've described nor are abilities priced to use knockback in that way. I've demonstrated with points and enhancements your interpretation relies on very specific combinations working in ways that aren't in their description (a lot of "well it should work like this" reasoning on your part).

What your suggesting isn't bad, it's just not something in the rules. If you want to make it part of your house rule, that's fine. I'd suggest adjusting some costs to reflect that KB is a king defense against many (perhaps most) attacks. "Area Aura" becomes a new enhancement that you can create a rule of thumb defensive value for and appropriately assign a cost to it.

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You keep insisting I'm applying DR, but I'm only talking about how Knockback effectively increases the distance to travel.
No, I keep mentioning how you're decreasing damage in very nonspecific ways.

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That every possible way different modifiers can interact for every variation of an advantage isn't given explicit examples does not make those lack of examples any sort of argument against following the rules to determine how they interact.
If they combine to make something that's not part of the any of the components, where did it come from? It's not like making runewords with Diablo where rune A gives you +1, rune B gives you "ignores defense", but A+B gives you 10 different abilities that neither A nor B had.

When you take modifiers with GURPS, you get the sum of all the abilities those modifiers provide. You don't get new secret "collect them all" bonus abilities.

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A "point defense" is exactly what attacking an area with a persistant IA (or switching on an Aura AE) does: it launches attacks at targets within the designated area.
That makes a fine ability description. That's not what Innate Attack does, with or without modifiers.

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Only 2 books: Basic Set for how Knockback works, Power-Ups 4 for allowing Aura/AE combination. You can do it with just the basic set using a Persistent AE. The difference there is you set up an area ahead of time which stays put (unless you also take Mobile) instead of being centered on you as you move.
That's 3 (Characters, Campaigns, PU4). You also rely on MA for the pushback thing. Even with those, you haven't given another example of an ability that acts semi-sentiently to defend you selectively by undoing someone's success with an attack.

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You can attack objects, weapons and ammo are objects.
Sure, you can with a maneuver on your turn. You just haven't provided any relevant rules for your Aura reducing the damage from an incoming attack. Relevant being a rule book quote of how much damage does it reduce and against which attacks?

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Can you point out an example of a non-Bombardment AE being defined as physical objects?
Probably? To what end? Just because you can price various combinations doesn't mean the GM should allow them.

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Why is it absurd that redirecting an attack is easier to destroy the attacking implement? You can parry a fist with much less ST than it takes to destroy that fist in a single punch.
Point costs. It's a crock if you're creating a cheaper defense relative to what other characters in the game are spending on defense.

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You keep insisting it's cheaper, I challenge you to line up some examples where you think IA completely outperforms equivalently priced DR. I think I can show you where it will not.
I already have based on the idea that you'd apply the damage to either incinerate, reduce (ala power parry), or knock back. Since none of those are described in a rule book, I'm not sure which you're suggesting as a general case.
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:50 AM   #107
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
you can use those for kicking a bullet if that comes up. That comes under the rules for you initiating an attack on a target and resolving it.
When targets decide to touch Spines/Auras they are the ones initiating the attack, the owner of the advantage's input is simply taking a Ready maneuver to turn on the Spines/Aura if they were switchable.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
What I've stated is that the vector for damage when someone else has already rolled to hit you is not usually a valid target.
Right, it requires "immediate"/"instant" turn-interrupting capacity. It can't be anything which relies on your taking a maneuver to do.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
This goes back to how it's not a general game rule, but something you're doing since you feel it should work a certain way.
Bullets having mass IS a general game rule (it's listed under equipment weight) and determining HP based on mass is also a general game rule.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's fine, but rather than penalize other abilities I'd suggest you have the PC buying the oddball ability pay for what benefits he's getting.
Knockback is built into the cost of Crushing Attack, turn interruption is built into Aura/Persistent, affecting things before they reach you is built into Area Effect.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
A good reason why this ruling is horribly unbalanced. Some Auras would benefit from it greatly while others wouldn't see any improvement, even though the cost between the auras might be the same.
Knockback has always had tactical defensive applications, we're just talking about when they apply. AE is a powerful thing.

Rules equate taking 1 second to move through 1 yard of AE and 99 yards of AE using Move 100 even though the latter should take 99x as long and be 99x as much exposure.

If the basic rules ("take damage once per second") assume taking a 1 yard step (the usual combat tactic) a good house rule to more realistically treat AE exposure (and cut down on impact to speedsters) would be "multiply damage by yards moved, then divide by Top Speed, to determine damage". So someone who crossed a 1d AE with a top speed of 5 would take (1d*5/5) if they traveled a full 5 yards, but only (1d*2/5) if they only traveled through 2 yards.

Of course, if someone remained in the AE at the end of their turn, they should take the full damage, the fractioning assumes they're running in and out. Bullets, which travel with a Top Speed of 350 (pistols) or 600 (Rifles) would only suffer 1/350 or 1/600 per yard of AE they traveled through, using this house rule. Slower projectiles (I'm not sure how we determine the speed of arrows or thrown objects) would be lower Top Speeds and lower fractions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Detail exactly what you're suggesting, especially since the rule books don't cover this. Provide examples of how you would handle a guy with a flaming 1 yard aura or a crushing 1 yard aura against guns, knives, a charging sumo, etc.
How about a Light Shield (B287)? Shields are a reach 1 weapon so they occupy the hex in front of the user, so the shield enters the AE prior to the wielder. DR5/HP20 means it would only suffer 1 yard of knockback per 18 points of damage, but would only require 6 damage to begin taking damage.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Yes, so? Bleeding to death is just as much of a risk if you're in the jungle without proper care as being poisoned by a a bullet. Infection in a jungle is dangerous from any wound. The common factor is being far away from proper medical care in an environment where the wound will fester and the damage cannot be properly treated. It's not because bullets are intrinsically more dangerous.
The danger of infection from a hole is something bullets enjoy on top of infection. Being able to remove a bullet is more difficult to do and more likely to cause additional damage than simply stitching a wound shut or bandaging it.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I've demonstrated with points and enhancements your interpretation relies on very specific combinations working in ways that aren't in their description (a lot of "well it should work like this" reasoning on your part).
GURPS relies on combining an understanding of different criteria to reach conclusions. It doesn't require explicit examples for everything.

Your idea of giving "attacks" some unique property of allowing characters/objects to bypass a Knockback Aura leads to absurd benefits like dwarves being able to toss each other through a Wind Tunnel they could never run up. Whether you enter an AE under your own power or under another's power doesn't delay when instant effects take effect.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
No, I keep mentioning how you're decreasing damage in very nonspecific ways.
In your immediately previous post you typed "If the end effect is to reduce the amount of damage you take, then mechanically it's DR", so yes.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If they combine to make something that's not part of the any of the components, where did it come from? It's not like making runewords with Diablo where rune A gives you +1, rune B gives you "ignores defense", but A+B gives you 10 different abilities that neither A nor B had.
It's not a different ability: Area Effect determines the position an attack begins, so it affects WHEN an attack begins if that position is reached prior to a closer position.

When you take modifiers with GURPS, you get the sum of all the abilities those modifiers provide. You don't get new secret "collect them all" bonus abilities.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That makes a fine ability description. That's not what Innate Attack does, with or without modifiers.
Persistent AE attacks zero in on what enters them, it isn't an "Active Defense", but the idea of "destroy my enemy or move them so far they can't reach me" clearly has a strategic defensive application.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's 3 (Characters, Campaigns, PU4).
C and C are numbered continuously, it's 1 book split into 2.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You also rely on MA for the pushback thing.
That's for your benefit, if you wanted to realistically house rule Knocback to be less effective.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Even with those, you haven't given another example of an ability that acts semi-sentiently to defend you selectively by undoing someone's success with an attack.
You're not undoing the success with the attack, you're interfering before the attacking implement reaches the target.

Let's look at the "Dropping" skill (B189) as an example. You roll this as soon as you drop something to see if you targeted properly. B431 discusses "Terminal Velocity" for humans on earth being 100 on a swan dive, 60 if spread-eagled. This means if a flying gargoyle dropped a human from 600 yards up (1800 feet) even though they would make their Dropping skill roll to hit right away, the human would not reach the target for 6 (swan) to 10 (eagle) seconds. So there can clearly be a delay between the time an attack roll is made and between when the attacking implement arrives to its target, during which to compromise the implement.

During that time, it would be possible to shoot at the dropped/falling human (B550 at either -8 or -10 based on speed alone, even more based on distance added). If you were using Burning Attack you could incinerate them so there's nothing left to fall on people except a bunch of inconsequential ashes that spread in the wind.

If you were using a non-wounding Crushing Attack, if you were firing from below and inflicted 800 points of damage against an HP 10 human (enough to cause 100 yards of knockback) you are adding at least 1 second of falling time, and this would be enough to potentially "juggle" them because it will take another second to recoup that distance.

If you were firing from the side, that would obviously add a horizontal vector to change the hex being targeted below.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, you can with a maneuver on your turn.
Auras and Persistents (and Uncontrollables) don't care about their owner's maneuvers once active.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You just haven't provided any relevant rules for your Aura reducing the damage from an incoming attack.
You can't attack with a nonexistent object, whether it doesn't exist because it was destroyed or because it is no longer present due to relocation (knockback, warp)

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Relevant being a rule book quote of how much damage does it reduce and against which attacks?
1/2 effectiveness at 1/3 HP is the best general guideline I can find for using damaged objects. Although guns are high-tech, slugs are basic things so they would probably be more durable and comparable to simple melee weapons in terms of requiring much more damage before they can't function.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Point costs. It's a crock if you're creating a cheaper defense relative to what other characters in the game are spending on defense.
Only if they do the same things. 1 DR will always mitigate some damage from Captain America throwing a (non-vibranium/adamtantium) HP 20 shield at you. 1d non-wounding Crushing will only help in the rare chance you roll max (6) damage AND a critical hit that happens to triple damage, because 18 is just barely the threshold (HP-2) to cause 1 yard of knockback...

and even in that case, that 1 yard would only help you if the distance from Cap to you is 1 yard shy of the 1/2D or Max barriers, because all knockback does (as MA clarifies) is causes you to have to reuse some of your velocity to re-cross the same space you were knocked back through.

Last edited by Plane; 12-19-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:09 PM   #108
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
When targets decide to touch Spines/Auras they are the ones initiating the attack, the owner of the advantage's input is simply taking a Ready maneuver to turn on the Spines/Aura if they were switchable.
It doesn't matter. Spines don't prevent damage, don't penalize the attacker before they can do anything, and therefore don't interrupt anything.

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Right, it requires "immediate"/"instant" turn-interrupting capacity. It can't be anything which relies on your taking a maneuver to do.
See above. Auras don't preempt attacks. You can have a 1million die aura that will turn any guy that punches you to ash, but as far as Aura is concerned he'll still land that punch and you'll still take full damage even as the puncher is being turned to ash.

You've tried to bypass this rule with a lot of fancy world 'spaining, but none of the enhancements you've mentioned ever provide that utility. I get that you feel the combination should even if none of the components do, but that's not how enhancements stack.

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Knockback is built into the cost of Crushing Attack, turn interruption is built into Aura/Persistent, affecting things before they reach you is built into Area Effect.
That's not even how turn interruption works. With a Wait or other action, you'll do it before they can act not after they roll. After an attack has been made, the only "game" mechanism for stopping it at that point is a defense (active or passive). Auras are neither and thus do not stop attacks.

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snip
I can see how you could try to figure out time in the area to assess an appropriate fraction the damage, which again makes sense from a "real world" POV, but it certainly isn't the way the system is designed to work. It would complicate the math during play and it would also make speed much more valuable (point/enhancement adjustments).

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How about a Light Shield (B287)? Shields are a reach 1 weapon so they occupy the hex in front of the user, so the shield enters the AE prior to the wielder. DR5/HP20 means it would only suffer 1 yard of knockback per 18 points of damage, but would only require 6 damage to begin taking damage.
Shields would normally be part of the mass of the user, and knocked back with the wearer. I don't believe KB values change based on Enc values (though that sounds like a good and easy to implement house rule).

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The danger of infection from a hole is something bullets enjoy on top of infection. Being able to remove a bullet is more difficult to do and more likely to cause additional damage than simply stitching a wound shut or bandaging it.
Depends on the game world and the particular weapon. Some bullets tumble, some tend to blow through. Arrows tend to stick out. Some UT weapons use "ice" which is a piercing projectile following all the same bullet rules (and with Limited Use based on freezing up more ice) but melt in the wound leaving only water. Trying to generalize "piercing projectiles" as being worse for healing doesn't really work well.

Furthermore, you have to contrast this with the virtual immunity you're providing to many slow moving projectiles and (depending on which damage reduction you're favoring this post) many faster ones.

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Your idea of giving "attacks" some unique property of allowing characters/objects to bypass a Knockback Aura leads to absurd benefits like dwarves being able to toss each other through a Wind Tunnel they could never run up. Whether you enter an AE under your own power or under another's power doesn't delay when instant effects take effect.
That fails in multiple ways, mostly due to the implication that knockback never happens, which isn't something I ever implied. See aura above, AE occurs; it just doesn't prevent a potential attack from happening.

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In your immediately previous post you typed "If the end effect is to reduce the amount of damage you take, then mechanically it's DR", so yes.
DR stops damage; IT stops injury. There is an important difference for a few reasons, but the particular comment was to point out that you want to reduce the amount of damage before it becomes injury. Reducing it to 1/2 or 0 decreases damage.

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It's not a different ability: Area Effect determines the position an attack begins, so it affects WHEN an attack begins if that position is reached prior to a closer position.
You haven't shown why AE is allowed to target an Innate Attack that's already rolled to hit you, so this is a non starter.

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You're not undoing the success with the attack, you're interfering before the attacking implement reaches the target.
Sure, there are legal ways of doing that. Active Defenses comes to mind. You could even build an ability that does what you're suggesting.

What you've built, however, does not. Let's look at the components
Aura -> triggers on impact, doesn't stop damage.
Area -> affects what's in it as "targets" (not components), doesn't say anything about stopping incoming attacks.
Persistent -> duration, doesn't affect damage.

None of the enhancements on their own would stop an attack, agreed? Yet somehow you're suggesting that if you combine two they work like DR or Warp? Do they do that consistently for all abilities or is that special for Innate Attack in your mind?

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So there can clearly be a delay between the time an attack roll is made and between when the attacking implement arrives to its target, during which to compromise the implement.
In that particular example, the person could also decide to change their position/path/speed such that the "success" is for a location they won't be in, either. It's an example where the attack relies on guessing where the target will be, but the outcome relies on nothing changing. That's a bit different from a normal attack where (from a rules perspective) the only thing left is to see if the user takes an active defense.

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Auras and Persistents (and Uncontrollables) don't care about their owner's maneuvers once active.
Nor do they seem to care if you're attacked or not. As far as I can tell, they don't have any emotions at all.

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You can't attack with a nonexistent object, whether it doesn't exist because it was destroyed or because it is no longer present due to relocation (knockback, warp)
Sure, but since Aura doesn't do that, it's a non-issue.

Here's another thought. Since you took Aura, Area, and Melee, perhaps it generates an effect only *after* you're struck rather than creating a field around you? After all, Aura says if the weapon strikes you, your ability attacks the weapon. Neither Area nor your ability has a duration to keep it active, so it's not a field around you. Worse, you can't activate your Area without satisfying the "melee" limitation, so duration would only work for that length of time after you struck someone first!

That's the problem with trying to work backwards figuring out what the modifiers do rather than working forwards and figuring out what you should buy to represent the ability.


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Only if they do the same things. 1 DR will always mitigate some damage from Captain America throwing a (non-vibranium/adamtantium) HP 20 shield at you. 1d non-wounding Crushing will only help in the rare chance you roll max (6) damage AND a critical hit that happens to triple damage, because 18 is just barely the threshold (HP-2) to cause 1 yard of knockback...
Is Cap flinging a 125 lbs shield or a 16lb shield in your example? Just curious, since you offered HP which varies for object type.

As for KB, in the real world, slowing down the momentum of anything will tend to reduce the impact. If your proposed solution doesn't account for that, you've already failed to make things more realistic.

Last edited by naloth; 12-19-2018 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 12-19-2018, 10:28 PM   #109
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It doesn't matter. Spines don't prevent damage, don't penalize the attacker before they can do anything, and therefore don't interrupt anything.
Neither does Aura in its basic form, either. If it were possible to combine Spines with Area Effect, it could certainly destroy things which enter an area before they can get to the middle, like Permeable Wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
See above. Auras don't preempt attacks. You can have a 1million die aura that will turn any guy that punches you to ash, but as far as Aura is concerned he'll still land that punch and you'll still take full damage even as the puncher is being turned to ash.
Using the basic mechanics of "instant damage", first you take full damage THEN the puncher is turned to ash. By the same basic mechanics, first the implement enters the area then the Innate Attack damages them, then the implement continues to make its way to its final destination.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You've tried to bypass this rule with a lot of fancy world 'spaining, but none of the enhancements you've mentioned ever provide that utility. I get that you feel the combination should even if none of the components do, but that's not how enhancements stack.
Anthony proposed on November 23 "use Area Effect, Persistent, Wall", and later that day Alexander Howl used Area Effect + Persistent but used Emanation instead of Wall. Both are acceptable approaches I agree with. I added the third option of Aura+AE since PU4 clarified it was legal.

There is no rule being bypassed: Auras in their basic nature don't damage something before it arrives at the source of the Aura. A 4th option that might bypass this could be "Time-Spanning".

What A/AH/my consensus is though, is that since objects enter the AE before objects hit the target, the AE hits the object before the object his the AE middle.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Shields would normally be part of the mass of the user, and knocked back with the wearer. I don't believe KB values change based on Enc values (though that sounds like a good and easy to implement house rule).
Whether or not holding something makes it part of you is a hazy issue.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Depends on the game world and the particular weapon. Some bullets tumble, some tend to blow through. Arrows tend to stick out. Some UT weapons use "ice" which is a piercing projectile following all the same bullet rules (and with Limited Use based on freezing up more ice) but melt in the wound leaving only water. Trying to generalize "piercing projectiles" as being worse for healing doesn't really work well.
I wasn't suggesting applying it to all Piercing-class :) The composition of the rounds is GM-input and there doesn't seem to be any complex breakdown unless somene did that in a Pyramid somewhere. I know there's one for more complex weapon modifiers for Innate Attack but I think it was for ancient, not aware of there being one for guns.

Rounds which stay in the body (presumably any that don't overpenetrate) which can eventually cause poison should be priced as some kind of long-exposure Toxic Followup. The example IA guns in Powers we can assume to be using some kind of non-toxic metal jacket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Furthermore, you have to contrast this with the virtual immunity you're providing to many slow moving projectiles and (depending on which damage reduction you're favoring this post) many faster ones.
You can get virtual immunity to many projectiles with a large amount of DR. Still waiting for a price comparison.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That fails in multiple ways, mostly due to the implication that knockback never happens, which isn't something I ever implied. See aura above, AE occurs; it just doesn't prevent a potential attack from happening.
You're right: the attack HAPPENS. You can fire a gun at a target beyond your Max. The bullet just doesn't get there.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You haven't shown why AE is allowed to target an Innate Attack that's already rolled to hit you, so this is a non starter.
AE targets objects, it doesn't target attacks. The attack BEGINS, but if the object being used to attack is diverted then it doesn't COMPLETE.

Sure, there are legal ways of doing that. Active Defenses comes to mind. You could even build an ability that does what you're suggesting.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Area -> affects what's in it as "targets" (not components), doesn't say anything about stopping incoming attacks.
Reread the Large-Area Injury rules, look for what happens when only one "component" is present within an AE.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Persistent -> duration, doesn't affect damage.
Persistent on AE creates a damaging field which immediately damages things that enter it, and will do so again every second thereafter so long as it lasts.

If you destroy an object as soon as it comes it, it can't do anything after that. I'd suggest you attack with AE in turn: if an AE (aura or persistent) destroys an incoming grenade and it's a grenade that explodes when destroyed, it will not stop the explosion like DR would.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
None of the enhancements on their own would stop an attack, agreed?
Enhancements can never do anything on their own, they're modifiers.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Yet somehow you're suggesting that if you combine two they work like DR or Warp?
Knockback already works "like Warp" in the sense it can move things, and "like DR" in the sense that moving someone so far away that their attacks can't reach you means they can't damage you (this is what Max is).

Nothing special is needed for that, your basic punch or shove can do that.

AEs let that be done to an area instead of a particular target. Making it persistent or an aura means the power will auto-attack like Spines against those who make contact with the area (not with you) so you don't need to make any maneuvers.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
the person could also decide to change their position/path/speed such that the "success" is for a location they won't be in, either.
I think this is referring to the target of Dropping and not the Dropper or Droppee right?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It's an example where the attack relies on guessing where the target will be, but the outcome relies on nothing changing. That's a bit different from a normal attack where (from a rules perspective) the only thing left is to see if the user takes an active defense.
There's nothing different, "Bullet Time" in Tactical Shooting says it can take multiple seconds for a bullet to arrive at longer distances, which does give people time to move.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
since Aura doesn't do that, it's a non-issue.
Please specify "AE aura" or "non-AE aura" so I know what you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Here's another thought. Since you took Aura, Area, and Melee, perhaps it generates an effect only *after* you're struck rather than creating a field around you? After all, Aura says if the weapon strikes you, your ability attacks the weapon. Neither Area nor your ability has a duration to keep it active, so it's not a field around you. Worse, you can't activate your Area without satisfying the "melee" limitation, so duration would only work for that length of time after you struck someone first!
Your thoughts contradict how Aura and Area Effect are defined as interacting in Power-Ups 4. The way it works is that the "AE" is substituted for "you".

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Is Cap flinging a 125 lbs shield or a 16lb shield in your example? Just curious, since you offered HP which varies for object type.
Oh right, I think there was something in Low-Tech about the HP for shields in Basic Set being too high :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As for KB, in the real world, slowing down the momentum of anything will tend to reduce the impact. If your proposed solution doesn't account for that, you've already failed to make things more realistic.
This is reflected in changes to damage from full to 1/2 to 0. Realistically, air resistance begins slowing bullets as soon as they exit the barrel and there is a constant deceleration from that which would make them less damaging, but basically we just have 2 tiers.

If you had more advanced house rules (say for 1/4 somewhere between 1/2 D and Max, 3/4 somewhere between 1/2D and 0) you could use them here too.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:55 AM   #110
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Actually, Max takes into account gravitational drop while 1/2D takes into account losses caused by air resistance. Since air resistance is a product of the square of the velocity, halving velocity (and therefore damage) quarters air resistance, meaning that bullets have substantial kinetic energy remaining by the time that gravity pulls them into the ground (which is why bullets fired from elevated positions are lethal from much further away than one would expect). Of course, bullets also have some lift to counter gravitational drop, which is why ballistics can be quite complicated.
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