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Old 11-18-2018, 04:48 PM   #1
lugaid
 
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Default [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

I've been idly considering ways that I'd use GURPS to simulate the world outlined in the old Chaosium wargame Lords of the Middle Sea. One of the unit types in that game is the "Horde", essentially light cavalry with rifles or rifled muskets, not entirely dissimilar to plains indian groups in much of the 19th century. They seem like they should have the same combat stats as Horse Archers, but on the model of the differences between Bowmen and Musketeers (or for that matter Skirmishers), they also seem like they should have lower costs to raise and maintain. What would be a good approach to handle this?

Also, I'm not sure how to model the anti-airship rockets that the Frigates and Ships of the Line of the setting sometimes carry, unless maybe to just invent a Neutralize Air feature.

And then there are the Arks…
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Old 11-18-2018, 05:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
I've been idly considering ways that I'd use GURPS to simulate the world outlined in the old Chaosium wargame Lords of the Middle Sea. One of the unit types in that game is the "Horde", essentially light cavalry with rifles or rifled muskets, not entirely dissimilar to plains indian groups in much of the 19th century. They seem like they should have the same combat stats as Horse Archers, but on the model of the differences between Bowmen and Musketeers (or for that matter Skirmishers), they also seem like they should have lower costs to raise and maintain. What would be a good approach to handle this?
Isn't that just TL5+ cavalry?

EDIT: TL5 cavalry 'pistols' (read the description), TL6+ cavalry rifles.
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Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 11-18-2018 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 05:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Isn't that just TL5+ cavalry?

EDIT: TL5 cavalry 'pistols' (read the description), TL6+ cavalry rifles.
Definitely not Cavalry Pistols. Those are heavy cavalry that ride in close formation and wear armor, as a result not having the Rec class. These should be light cavalry, and should certainly have the Rec class. Probably not Mounted Rifles (TL6), either, since those are described as dismounting to fight. Plus, the TS20 seems a little out of bounds. TS2 or TS3, in line with Line Infantry or Skirmishers, seems like it would be right.
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Old 11-18-2018, 06:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Definitely not Cavalry Pistols. Those are heavy cavalry that ride in close formation and wear armor, as a result not having the Rec class. These should be light cavalry, and should certainly have the Rec class. Probably not Mounted Rifles (TL6), either, since those are described as dismounting to fight. Plus, the TS20 seems a little out of bounds. TS2 or TS3, in line with Line Infantry or Skirmishers, seems like it would be right.
Well, TS20 is for a TL6 element...

Comparison suggests that they'd have to cost 100k/20K (because it doesn't make sense to cost more than Cavalry Pistols or less than Light Cavalry and those both cost that). And as you say they probably ought to have TS2 because they shouldn't intrinsically have more firepower per man than riflemen on foot.
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Old 11-18-2018, 07:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
I've been idly considering ways that I'd use GURPS to simulate the world outlined in the old Chaosium wargame Lords of the Middle Sea. One of the unit types in that game is the "Horde", essentially light cavalry with rifles or rifled muskets, not entirely dissimilar to plains indian groups in much of the 19th century. They seem like they should have the same combat stats as Horse Archers, but on the model of the differences between Bowmen and Musketeers (or for that matter Skirmishers), they also seem like they should have lower costs to raise and maintain. What would be a good approach to handle this?

Also, I'm not sure how to model the anti-airship rockets that the Frigates and Ships of the Line of the setting sometimes carry, unless maybe to just invent a Neutralize Air feature.

And then there are the Arks…
Don't know if you'll like this approach or not... *teasing grin*

What are Light troops supposed to do? They act largely as skirmishers right?
If you read the description for Light Infantry, it includes bowmen and TL 4 musketmen who do not fire in massed volleys.

So, the description of Light Infantry shows that they have the functionality of REC only. TS is 2. Their mobility is Foot.

Light Cavalry on the other hand, has the same TS value of 2, but costs a total of 2.5 times (or plus 150%) that of Light Infantry. Both Light Infantry and Light Cavalry fight by skirmishing and prefer to fight from a skirmish style methodology, but can be useful for pressing home an attack. So it would seem reasonable to presume that the added function of "CV" plus Mobility: Mtd, costs roughly 2.5 times that of Light Infantry. If you tack on the added functionality of "F" (like that for Horse Archers), then the cost for a mounted archer becomes one of 50% additional over the 250% original Light Infantry cost, or 300% the cost of Light Infantry. Horse Archers could be priced in terms of your Light Infantry no?

So, who else likes to skirmish at TL 5? Per GURPS MASSED COMBAT page 17 we have:

"Skirmishers (TL5): Foot soldiers trained to fight in a looser skirmish formation with musket or rifle. This is light infantry at mid-TL5 and most infantry at late TL5."

So, if you want Skirmisher Trained "Horse Archer" equivalents at TL 5, my instinct would be to price it as 300% normal cost of Skirmishers (aka light Infantry). But then again, there is that little niggling detail...

Light Infantry normally only has one functionality: Rec. You add 1.5 x the base price for the Mounted Ability to be "CV". Then you add in + .5x the cost for "F" functionality. Skirmishers at TL 5 already come with Rec and F. All you need is the CV functionality. So all we really need is the added cost of CV at +150% (or 2.5 x normal skirmisher costs)

This brings the price for a basic "Horde" as: $75,000 to raise, and to maintain it monthly - $15,000. Its functionality would be Rec, F, and CV, its Mobility would be Mtd. Any time you add the CV value to a unit, it adds +1 to Wt.

New Stats for your Basic Hoard:

Skirmishing Hoard 2 Cv, F, Rec 2 Mtd 75K 15K 2

That's how I'd approach it anyhow. ;)

Last edited by hal; 11-18-2018 at 07:37 PM. Reason: spelling error darn it...
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, TS20 is for a TL6 element...

Comparison suggests that they'd have to cost 100k/20K (because it doesn't make sense to cost more than Cavalry Pistols or less than Light Cavalry and those both cost that). And as you say they probably ought to have TS2 because they shouldn't intrinsically have more firepower per man than riflemen on foot.
Yeah, this all makes sense to me. I was, for a moment, thinking about $90K/$18K, but see below.

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
What are Light troops supposed to do? They act largely as skirmishers right?
Well, and reconnaissance.

Quote:
If you read the description for Light Infantry, it includes bowmen and TL 4 musketmen who do not fire in massed volleys.

So, the description of Light Infantry shows that they have the functionality of REC only. TS is 2. Their mobility is Foot.

Light Cavalry on the other hand, has the same TS value of 2, but costs a total of 2.5 times (or plus 150%) that of Light Infantry. Both Light Infantry and Light Cavalry fight by skirmishing and prefer to fight from a skirmish style methodology, but can be useful for pressing home an attack. So it would seem reasonable to presume that the added function of "CV" plus Mobility: Mtd, costs roughly 2.5 times that of Light Infantry. If you tack on the added functionality of "F" (like that for Horse Archers), then the cost for a mounted archer becomes one of 50% additional over the 250% original Light Infantry cost, or 300% the cost of Light Infantry. Horse Archers could be priced in terms of your Light Infantry no?

So, who else likes to skirmish at TL 5? Per GURPS MASSED COMBAT page 17 we have:

"Skirmishers (TL5): Foot soldiers trained to fight in a looser skirmish formation with musket or rifle. This is light infantry at mid-TL5 and most infantry at late TL5."

So, if you want Skirmisher Trained "Horse Archer" equivalents at TL 5, my instinct would be to price it as 300% normal cost of Skirmishers (aka light Infantry). But then again, there is that little niggling detail...

Light Infantry normally only has one functionality: Rec. You add 1.5 x the base price for the Mounted Ability to be "CV". Then you add in + .5x the cost for "F" functionality. Skirmishers at TL 5 already come with Rec and F. All you need is the CV functionality. So all we really need is the added cost of CV at +150% (or 2.5 x normal skirmisher costs)

This brings the price for a basic "Horde" as: $75,000 to raise, and to maintain it monthly - $15,000. Its functionality would be Rec, F, and CV, its Mobility would be Mtd. Any time you add the CV value to a unit, it adds +1 to Wt.

New Stats for your Basic Hoard:

Skirmishing Hoard 2 Cv, F, Rec 2 Mtd 75K 15K 2

That's how I'd approach it anyhow. ;)
I think that is very well-reasoned. Unfortunately, I noticed that, if you buy Skirmishers and give them Mounts, you have a less effective unit (they look like the above, but have to dismount to fight so they lose the Cv class) at a higher total cost ($30K/$6K + $60K/$12K = $90K/$18K). I think that the $100K/$20K cost that Ulzgoroth reasoned out seems to work better, giving:

Hoard 2 Cv, F, Rec 2 Mtd $100K $20K 5

Maybe TL4 instead, but 5 seems to fit the setting.

Thanks everyone!

(If anyone has anything to add, I'm still interested in the discussion, of course.)

Last edited by lugaid; 11-18-2018 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Forgot to add the TL
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Yeah, this all makes sense to me. I was, for a moment, thinking about $90K/$18K, but see below.



Well, and reconnaissance.



I think that is very well-reasoned. Unfortunately, I noticed that, if you buy Skirmishers and give them Mounts, you have a less effective unit (they look like the above, but have to dismount to fight so they lose the Cv class) at a higher total cost ($30K/$6K + $60K/$12K = $90K/$18K). I think that the $100K/$20K cost that Ulzgoroth reasoned out seems to work better, giving:

Hoard 2 Cv, F, Rec 2 Mtd $100K $20K 5

Maybe TL4 instead, but 5 seems to fit the setting.

Thanks everyone!

(If anyone has anything to add, I'm still interested in the discussion, of course.)

Technically speaking, what you want then, are skirmishers who have mounts. This means that they are to be treated as normal skirmishers who move at Mtd speeds, not foot. That is specifically intended to do what you want to do it seems.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

I'm confused...

Are the Horde troops that fight from horseback, or are they troops that use horse to move to their fighting positions and then begin battle?

If they fight from horseback, I'd go the route I mentioned simply so that the troops have all three functionalities. If they are Recon, F troops (god, Larry Storch - begone!!!!) only but move at mtd speeds, then purchase one unit of mounts for 60,000 and the Skirmishers for 30,000.
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Old 11-19-2018, 12:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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I'm confused...

Are the Horde troops that fight from horseback, or are they troops that use horse to move to their fighting positions and then begin battle?

If they fight from horseback, I'd go the route I mentioned simply so that the troops have all three functionalities. If they are Recon, F troops (god, Larry Storch - begone!!!!) only but move at mtd speeds, then purchase one unit of mounts for 60,000 and the Skirmishers for 30,000.
What I'm saying is that Skirmishers with Mounts do not have the Cv class, but cost more than your stats for a Horde ($90K total for the Skirmishers with Mounts vs. $75K for your version of Horde). If you raise the price in line with what Ulzgoroth proposed, following a different train of logic, then they cost more than Skirmishers with Mounts ($100K vs. $90K total), making the addition of the Cv class seem more appropriate.
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cavalry Rifles

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Definitely not Cavalry Pistols. Those are heavy cavalry that ride in close formation and wear armor, as a result not having the Rec class. These should be light cavalry, and should certainly have the Rec class. Probably not Mounted Rifles (TL6), either, since those are described as dismounting to fight. Plus, the TS20 seems a little out of bounds. TS2 or TS3, in line with Line Infantry or Skirmishers, seems like it would be right.
There is no time period when rifles were regularly fired from the saddle. That would expose the one who fires and interfere with accuracy. Smoothbore carbines were occasionally used that way, or I read it somewhere. But I am not sure if that was standard tactics so much as, "this might conceivably be useful sometime-or-other."
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