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Old 01-03-2016, 09:35 AM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
Most people going around have one of DX 9 with Knot-Tying 5, DX 10 with Knot-Tying-6, or DX 11 with Knot-Tying-7. A person even with a skill of 10 can tie the same knots a lot faster by virtue of needing to take less Extra Time bonuses to succeed reliably.
This is true, but remember that this guy isn't being compared to people with no knot-tying training.

(Unless he's actually been seen tying knots while blindfolded and on fire, a 20 is highly unlikely, yes.)
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Umm, there's this thing called floating skill to a different attribute, and it's used to resolve exactly that sort of difference between the physical and the mental, among other things.
You seem to be implying that ropeless climbing is climbing/dex, and knot-tying for climbing can be handled with climbing/int. But Gurps has knot-tying itself as a dex-based skill that gets bonuses for high manual dexterity, etc. Knot-tying/int (or climbing/int for rope use) would be used for things like answering a quiz about knots, or writing a book about them, or assisting an engineer in designing a rope bridge.

Seems clear that the rules envision knot-tying on adventures as a dex activity, not an int activity. Let's say we have a int 8, dex 14 giant sentient squirrel character with climbing/dex at 16-. If knot-tying defaulted to climbing/int -4, his low intelligence would explain why he is bad at knots. But why is he required to float it to int? No one else is.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:18 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Originally Posted by Adversary View Post
You seem to be implying that ropeless climbing is climbing/dex, and knot-tying for climbing can be handled with climbing/int. But Gurps has knot-tying itself as a dex-based skill that gets bonuses for high manual dexterity, etc. Knot-tying/int (or climbing/int for rope use) would be used for things like answering a quiz about knots, or writing a book about them, or assisting an engineer in designing a rope bridge.

Seems clear that the rules envision knot-tying on adventures as a dex activity, not an int activity. Let's say we have a int 8, dex 14 giant sentient squirrel character with climbing/dex at 16-. If knot-tying defaulted to climbing/int -4, his low intelligence would explain why he is bad at knots. But why is he required to float it to int? No one else is.
I was thinking more of using IQ-based skill for figuring whether a character knows those knots and can handle complex tools. You can still use DX for the practical side of their usage, if you know them.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:24 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I was thinking more of using IQ-based skill for figuring whether a character knows those knots and can handle complex tools. You can still use DX for the practical side of their usage, if you know them.
I see what you are saying, I think. Suppose our sentient giant squirrel is leading a climbing party. You are suggesting that he might have to make several climbing rolls related to rope use: a roll to determine how to set up the party's rope system and figure out what knots are best (int-based). And a second roll to actually tie the knots (dex-based). That's probably realistic, I just think it falls below the resolution level of Gurps as applied by most people. How many game masters are going to require two knot-tying rolls for every climbing task, every time a captive needs to be tied up, etc.?

As with many dex-based skills there is a mental element. Gymnastics routine or martial-arts kata or dance routine--gotta remember the routine. Piloting? Lots of technical facts about the aircraft's capabilities you need to know. But for game purposes it gets subsumed into the dex-based skill.

I think your suggestion of a familiarity penalty covers most of this when it comes to our high-dex, high-skill climber who has never seen a rope. Once introduced to ropes he'll pick up their application fast, quickly seeing their application to his area of expertise. Is it exactly realistic that he'll quickly intuit how to properly rig a belay, anchor, or rappel? No, but it's below the resolution level of the game. If the player really wants his character to be a great raw climber but have no ability with ropes, a quirk or skill-incompetence disadvantage would be appropriate.
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:55 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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I see what you are saying, I think. Suppose our sentient giant squirrel is leading a climbing party. You are suggesting that he might have to make several climbing rolls related to rope use: a roll to determine how to set up the party's rope system and figure out what knots are best (int-based). And a second roll to actually tie the knots (dex-based). That's probably realistic, I just think it falls below the resolution level of Gurps as applied by most people. How many game masters are going to require two knot-tying rolls for every climbing task, every time a captive needs to be tied up, etc.?
I don't mean rolling every time. I mean something like "if your IQ-based Climbing is >= 10, you can learn and get the right to use so-and-so complicated knots". More of a Prerequisite to some actions. Assuming you want lower-IQ characters to be able to learn complicated stuff if they throw lots and lots of practice at it.

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Originally Posted by Adversary View Post
I think your suggestion of a familiarity penalty covers most of this when it comes to our high-dex, high-skill climber who has never seen a rope. Once introduced to ropes he'll pick up their application fast, quickly seeing their application to his area of expertise. Is it exactly realistic that he'll quickly intuit how to properly rig a belay, anchor, or rappel? No, but it's below the resolution level of the game. If the player really wants his character to be a great raw climber but have no ability with ropes, a quirk or skill-incompetence disadvantage would be appropriate.
Apparently not everyone wants to use a Familiarity.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:27 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

I've had plenty of players choose Knot-Tying because they wanted their PCs to be good at working with rope without being experts at Climbing, Lasso, Seamanship, Traps, and the like. The primary use is indeed binding prisoners . . . but for those who've actually spent points on the skill, I also allow a Knot-Tying roll to be complementary to their own or someone else's Climbing when using lines, Freight Handling when securing cargo, Seamanship when rigging or securing a vessel, Traps when setting a tripwire or snare, and so on. I also allow a Knot-Tying roll to improvise a lariat (for Lasso fans) and in place of Traps for simple stuff like a cord tied across a path. And it's the go-to skill whenever someone proposes a cockamamie scheme for hoisting, towing, or otherwise getting friends or gear from A to B using ropes.

I've also had people argue to use Knot-Tying as a complementary skill to Erotic Art, the details of which should be obvious without stating.

Oh, and it's hard to be a decent hangman without Knot-Tying.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:29 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Then why not call it "Rope-Handling" or, like D&D, "Use Rope"?
Because to most readers, that would imply the Lasso skill, which definitely isn't included. The operative aspect of rope use is tying knots in the rope, which makes "Knot-Tying" less prone to misinterpretation.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I don't mean rolling every time. I mean something like "if your IQ-based Climbing is >= 10, you can learn and get the right to use so-and-so complicated knots". More of a Prerequisite to some actions. Assuming you want lower-IQ characters to be able to learn complicated stuff if they throw lots and lots of practice at it.
This isn't how tasks are handled in games I've played in. Suppose the party wants to create a rope system to lower themselves and a quantity of heavy baggage off a cliff. The gm doesn't say, "That will require knowledge of knots X, Y, and Z. X is simple (IQ-based climbing of 8+), but Y and Z are complex (IQ-based climbing of 10+). Does someone have that? Ok, make a dex-based skill roll to tie the knots."

That would require a gm with a lot of real-world climbing and knot-tying skill who wants to determine exactly what the rope setup and required knots will be. (Or fudge it arbitrarily, but then what's the point?) I don't think most people play that way, nor does the game envision it.

Instead, the gm assigns the task an abstract difficulty level, expressed as a bonus or penalty to skill, and then players roll. So in practice your idea that certain knot-tying tasks require both IQ-based and Dex-based skill is going to be expressed by two rolls.

I certainly cannot think of Gurps mechanics where the game says, rather than "action X takes a skill penalty of -Y," "Action X requires a minimum skill level of Z." For instance, in real life you might have a very competent driver who never learned how to pull a bootlegger's reverse, or a good helicopter pilot who never learned how to land under certain emergency conditions. But the game doesn't impose hard limits on whether you can do those things. Whether you can do them is expressed by whether you can make a skill roll with the appropriate penalty. The gm doesn't say, "A bootlegger's reverse requires manipulating the brake, wheel, and accelerator in a certain pattern, which you don't know unless you have IQ-driving at 12+." The gm says, "Bootlegger's reverse, driving -5."
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:53 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

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This isn't how tasks are handled in games I've played in. Suppose the party wants to create a rope system to lower themselves and a quantity of heavy baggage off a cliff. The gm doesn't say, "That will require knowledge of knots X, Y, and Z. X is simple (IQ-based climbing of 8+), but Y and Z are complex (IQ-based climbing of 10+). Does someone have that? Ok, make a dex-based skill roll to tie the knots."

That would require a gm with a lot of real-world climbing and knot-tying skill who wants to determine exactly what the rope setup and required knots will be. (Or fudge it arbitrarily, but then what's the point?) I don't think most people play that way, nor does the game envision it.

Instead, the gm assigns the task an abstract difficulty level, expressed as a bonus or penalty to skill, and then players roll. So in practice your idea that certain knot-tying tasks require both IQ-based and Dex-based skill is going to be expressed by two rolls.

I certainly cannot think of Gurps mechanics where the game says, rather than "action X takes a skill penalty of -Y," "Action X requires a minimum skill level of Z." For instance, in real life you might have a very competent driver who never learned how to pull a bootlegger's reverse, or a good helicopter pilot who never learned how to land under certain emergency conditions. But the game doesn't impose hard limits on whether you can do those things. Whether you can do them is expressed by whether you can make a skill roll with the appropriate penalty. The gm doesn't say, "A bootlegger's reverse requires manipulating the brake, wheel, and accelerator in a certain pattern, which you don't know unless you have IQ-driving at 12+." The gm says, "Bootlegger's reverse, driving -5."
We're getting into heavy houserule territory, and into questions of how to add fine detail to things that are abstract even when Knot-Tying is a separate skill. It's generally logical that someone with IQ1 and DX15 and Knot-Tying at DX+15 should not be able to invent some rope-based constructions. Using a prerequisite IQ-based skill level (like with New Inventions) seemed like a workable solution.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

That's why you'd use Engineer to plan the job and then assign the labor to your trained IQ 1 spiders to do with their spinnerets and Knot-Tying skills. This is a textbook example of Long Tasks (p. B346). Field Engineering (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 16: Wilderness Adventures, p. 33) works much the same way.
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