[Basic] Advantage of the Week: 3D Spatial Sense/Absolute Direction

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Not

Seems like it would. Half the time you spend hiking from A to B is from going in circles, or at least sub-optimal meanders.

You seem to be conflating Hiking and Navigation.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Celti

Absolute Timing granting no skill bonuses is why it's only two points.

Yes, I already said that. I then went on about how it might be good if neither did Absolute Direction.

Originally Posted by Celti

If you want to inflate Absolute Timing to [5] and give it its own skill bonuses, I could see that, but I have a hard time thinking of any universally applicable bonuses. Conversely, you could reduce Absolute Direction to two points, and remove the skill bonuses from it, but those bonuses are fairly broadly applicable, and I don't see much reason to do that.

Note: Obviously I did not quote the full post; if what I left out dramatically changed the meaning, let me know.

Well, that was the main point of my comment that you responded to... so obviously I do see reason to to that, though admittedly I don't view it as a major thing. As I keep designing characters, trying to really "learn" 4e, I keep going "Absolute Direction seems like a natural fit except... all this character has is Navigation (Land). That +3 bonus is nice, but I don't actually need it for this character."

Navigation is about more than knowing which way is north and remembering what paths you've taken over the last month, though such a thing is very useful... I am wondering if it is a mistake to treat the bonus as inherent to the Advantage; the Advantage is knowing which way is north and known and being able to retrace what routes you've taken for the last month, without an IQ roll or the like. If your player's have recorded the paths they have taken and have a good compass, wouldn't you be giving them a similar bonus to their Navigation rolls? It doesn't seem like the same thing as "Talent", where you are just adept: rather you have some of the "tools" needed provided via internal mental advantage. Sometimes even if something is a pressing issue, its better to at least address it lest it be mistaken as not a problem at all.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Well, I did make this thread in the hopes of thoroughly exploring the Advantage, so "quibbling" may be appropriate. I've also had many characters run short by just a few points, so reducing Absolute Direction to (for example) 4 points is more significant than it appears. In fact, that ties into some of the other support for its pricing; yes if you have all the relevant skills, its a great deal. The issue is incorporating that in a character.

Body Sense is primarily of use with teleportation; not everyone who needs to keep track of where they are going/have been is Dai Blackthorn. ;) Similarly, not everyone needs all three of Navigation (Air), Navigation (Land), and Navigation (Sea). Which perhaps brings me to something that (for better or worse) has become something of a mantra for me; wouldn't it be better if it were more generic and universal?

By that, if the individual components were broken up; they might still be there as Enhancements (or related Advantages you can freely pair up), but especially in games where characters are built on 150 CP or less, its nice not having to pay for features I don't want. Just knowing which way is "north" is a good start. Having the Skill Bonuses not always apply would help; is it too much of a stretch for someone to have Absolute Direction but for whatever reason, its useless while out at sea or flying through the air?

Deconstructing a trait like Absolute Direction is usually a fairly easy exercise (although explaining how you can have it and not have a bonus to Navigation might be trickier to explain), and the benefits gained by presenting a stripped-down version in the book are probably out-weighed by the utility gained from showing the 'package'. We can see why it would be disadvantageous to present both, given the large page-count in the RAW.

[whswhs]

Having a compass does provide a bonus to Navigation: +1, per both Low-Tech and High-Tech. You can take this as an Accessory perk. Absolute Direction is more like having advanced modern navigational gear in your head; it gives a big bonus, like those for true celestial navigation in High-Tech.

Bill Stoddard

[Otaku]

As stated, this isn't some devastating issue I have with the rules, but as a subject for consideration, I wonder if it really would have taken up a significant amount of space; consider that the writers felt the need to inform us that the crude directional sense of migrating animals was nothing but a zero point feature. That's good to know, especially when building animal (or animal inspired) templates, but it isn't really essential. Me, I'd rather see that "No Skill Bonus" version for a slightly reduced cost listed... or both left out for something more important in a later section.

The big thing is... I am really questioning the Skill Bonus at all; it sounds less like something a Talent grants and more like an equipment bonus... except the "equipment" is built in. That just seems like a feature of the skill and not the Advantage, but maybe this is something I just don't understand right? Are all Advantages priced this way so that bonuses caused by being useful for a particular skill must weigh in?

Absolute Timing gives no bonuses, and next week I'll try and have a list of skills that logically would benefit from it, if not all the time, then enough to matter.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Are all Advantages priced this way so that bonuses caused by being useful for a particular skill must weigh in?

As per the New Advantages section of Basic Set, skill bonuses do indeed have point costs associated with them, and the skill bonus portion of an advantage definitely should count towards its cost.

I've played minotaurs repeatedly in Dungeon fantasy games; Absolute Direction was, to me, definitely worth 5 points. Weightless, TL8-ish equivalent navigation equipment that my TL3 IQ 8 illiterate barbarian can use, can never have stolen, doesn't work by magic, and just generally can't lose the use of short of specific magical jamming (Mystic Mist spell, I'm looking at you)...? Yes, absolutely worth 5 points.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Bruno

As per the New Advantages section of Basic Set, skill bonuses do indeed have point costs associated with them, and the skill bonus portion of an advantage definitely should count towards its cost.

Let me rephrase that; when an Advantage provides a bonus akin to having appropriate gear as a natural facet of the rest of that Advantage (as opposed to something extra added on), should it count towards the cost of that Advantage, or be recognized as a facet of that skill? The answer is still probably yes, but hopefully now I have phrased my question properly. XD

Originally Posted by Bruno

I've played minotaurs repeatedly in Dungeon fantasy games; Absolute Direction was, to me, definitely worth 5 points. Weightless, TL8-ish equivalent navigation equipment that my TL3 IQ 8 illiterate barbarian can use, can never have stolen, doesn't work by magic, and just generally can't lose the use of short of specific magical jamming (Mystic Mist spell, I'm looking at you)...? Yes, absolutely worth 5 points.

Many characters can make great use of Absolute Direction; I just seem to have a knack for designing characters where I could really use part of it, but the rest seems like overkill.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I have a situation with my campaign that I didn't think about at first.

The characters are in a Dyson Sphere (a bunch of large habitats connected via teleportals in this case). The three portals from each habitat got to a specific other habitat that otherwise has no spatial connection to the first habitat.

One of the characters has 3d spatial sense. The other characters just feel like they are going to a habitat about 100 feet away.

How should the one with 3d spatial sense feel?

3d Spatial Sense is not an extrasensory ability. If you've got seamless portals such that you just walk from point A to point very-not-A with no dislocation 3d Spatial Sense won't have any special ability to spot the discontinuity.

On the other hand it does mean you know exactly how far you've come. So if you walk 40 meters down a corridor with portal, then take a net 180 degree turn and walk the opposite direction for a similar distance down corridors without portals, you'll know when you've reached a point where, under the geometry you thought applied, you should be in a room you were in before but are not. Most people won't be sure unless they're actively surveying.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

3d Spatial Sense is not an extrasensory ability. If you've got seamless portals such that you just walk from point A to point very-not-A with no dislocation 3d Spatial Sense won't have any special ability to spot the discontinuity.

Except you'll notice that all of a sudden north is in a different direction (assuming portals aren't oriented at precisely the same angle towards magnetic poles).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Except you'll notice that all of a sudden north is in a different direction (assuming portals aren't oriented at precisely the same angle towards magnetic poles).

Huh. That's true, and bizarre given that you're on a Dyson sphere which isn't going to have any magnetic poles.

...Is there a 'dead reckoning' modifier for Absolute Direction that modifies it so that it doesn't implicitly include an extremely exotic cosmic compass? Like, as defined you could throw someone with 3d Spatial Sense to a random point anywhere in the universe and while they might have no idea where they are whatsoever they'd be able to tell anyone they met there the direction of the Milky Way's rotation, and that's silly.