Shield questions: Greaves, Feints

Gef · 12-07-2011, 04:38 PM

A) I've read that Greek hoplites wore their heaviest armor on their heads and shins, the latter because it was the area least protected by their large shields. How would you model that?

Tentatively, I can think of two ways:

A1) If a character has a large shield, then an attack aimed at the leg has a 4-in-6 chance of hitting the greave, rather than 3-in-6, with a correspondingly reduced chance to hit the upper leg, keeping knees the same because we'd like to stick with a single die.

A2) Treat the legs, much like the non-shield side, as an aree which potentially fails to derive benefit from a shield's defense bonus. Roll for which part of the leg is hit BEFORE rolling defense:
-------
1...Upper leg hit, any defense bonus counts
2...Also upper leg hit, but bonus from small shield does not apply
3...Knee hit, only the bonus from a large shield applies
4-6...Upper leg hit, no defense bonus counts
-------

B) I've also read that one of the main offensive uses of a shield was to hide the weapon hand, so that a foe wouldn't know if an attack were coming from above, below, or to the side, a deadly game of rock-paper-scissors. Apparently even small shields could be used thus. Again, I can think of two ways to model that:

B1) Not as a rule, but as an interpretation. Damage from a shield bonk is comparable to a punch, not much of a threat to a guy in armor, but you could still use Shield skill to "Feint" against him, imagining it as using the shield to hide the more threatening weapon. The problem with this interpretation is that you'd never use it if weapon Feint were higher than shield Feint, so maybe DB should give a bonus here.

B2) Wielding a shield halves the penalty for a Deceptive Attack with a different weapon, for a number of levels equal to shield DB. Frex, I have Broadsword skill 14 and a Medium Shield with DB 2, so I can take a two levels of Deceptive Attack for -1 each, giving me a net target of 12 to hit and imposing a -2 penalty to the other guy's block. I could take more levels of Deceptive Attack, but they wouldn't derive the benefit.

I kinda like the latter for game-mechanical elegance, but I've never fought with a weapon and shield, so I don't know if it feels right. What do you all think?

Thanks,

GEF

Dustin · 12-07-2011, 06:11 PM

I'd like to see a mechanic where, instead of providing DB and Blocking, you can opt to provide Cover DR for a number of hit locations determined by the shield size. Typically, the torso will get privileged, leaving the legs more or less uncovered and needing a little extra DR.

Landwalker · 12-07-2011, 08:19 PM

Below is a house-rule I use in my game regarding shields and cover:

A character may forgo his ability to Block in exchange for using a shield as cover. The degree of cover for a standing character is equal to the shield's DB (so DB 1 gives Very Light cover, DB 2 give Light, and DB 3 gives Medium). Crouching or kneeling increases the cover by one step. Being in a shield wall also increases the cover by one step.

The normal hit locations covered by a shield for purposes of hit location are:

DB 1 — The shield-side hand and forearm, as well as the chest.
DB 2 — The shield-side hand and arm, the off-side shoulder and upper arm (assuming the character is presenting a staggered stance, and only against attacks from an angle where that would be possible), the neck, and the torso.
DB 3 — Both arms (assuming as above), the neck, the torso, the thighs, and the knees.
When a character is using a shield for cover, their Move is halved. The character may attempt to move at their full Move by making a roll against DX-DB.

Obviously, they're pretty simplified. Something I threw together fairly quickly when one of my players wanted to use his shield to take cover from goblin archers, but they work for me and seem like as good a place to start as any.

12-07-2011, 04:38 PM	#1
Gef Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Yucca Valley, CA	Shield questions: Greaves, Feints A) I've read that Greek hoplites wore their heaviest armor on their heads and shins, the latter because it was the area least protected by their large shields. How would you model that? Tentatively, I can think of two ways: A1) If a character has a large shield, then an attack aimed at the leg has a 4-in-6 chance of hitting the greave, rather than 3-in-6, with a correspondingly reduced chance to hit the upper leg, keeping knees the same because we'd like to stick with a single die. A2) Treat the legs, much like the non-shield side, as an aree which potentially fails to derive benefit from a shield's defense bonus. Roll for which part of the leg is hit BEFORE rolling defense: ------- 1...Upper leg hit, any defense bonus counts 2...Also upper leg hit, but bonus from small shield does not apply 3...Knee hit, only the bonus from a large shield applies 4-6...Upper leg hit, no defense bonus counts ------- B) I've also read that one of the main offensive uses of a shield was to hide the weapon hand, so that a foe wouldn't know if an attack were coming from above, below, or to the side, a deadly game of rock-paper-scissors. Apparently even small shields could be used thus. Again, I can think of two ways to model that: B1) Not as a rule, but as an interpretation. Damage from a shield bonk is comparable to a punch, not much of a threat to a guy in armor, but you could still use Shield skill to "Feint" against him, imagining it as using the shield to hide the more threatening weapon. The problem with this interpretation is that you'd never use it if weapon Feint were higher than shield Feint, so maybe DB should give a bonus here. B2) Wielding a shield halves the penalty for a Deceptive Attack with a different weapon, for a number of levels equal to shield DB. Frex, I have Broadsword skill 14 and a Medium Shield with DB 2, so I can take a two levels of Deceptive Attack for -1 each, giving me a net target of 12 to hit and imposing a -2 penalty to the other guy's block. I could take more levels of Deceptive Attack, but they wouldn't derive the benefit. I kinda like the latter for game-mechanical elegance, but I've never fought with a weapon and shield, so I don't know if it feels right. What do you all think? Thanks, GEF

12-07-2011, 06:11 PM	#2
Dustin Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The former Chochenyo territory	Re: Shield questions: Greaves, Feints I'd like to see a mechanic where, instead of providing DB and Blocking, you can opt to provide Cover DR for a number of hit locations determined by the shield size. Typically, the torso will get privileged, leaving the legs more or less uncovered and needing a little extra DR. __________________ My gaming blog: Thor's Grumblings Keep your friends close, and your enemies in Close Combat.

12-07-2011, 08:19 PM	#3
Landwalker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Cumberland, ME	Re: Shield questions: Greaves, Feints Below is a house-rule I use in my game regarding shields and cover: A character may forgo his ability to Block in exchange for using a shield as cover. The degree of cover for a standing character is equal to the shield's DB (so DB 1 gives Very Light cover, DB 2 give Light, and DB 3 gives Medium). Crouching or kneeling increases the cover by one step. Being in a shield wall also increases the cover by one step. The normal hit locations covered by a shield for purposes of hit location are: DB 1 — The shield-side hand and forearm, as well as the chest. DB 2 — The shield-side hand and arm, the off-side shoulder and upper arm (assuming the character is presenting a staggered stance, and only against attacks from an angle where that would be possible), the neck, and the torso. DB 3 — Both arms (assuming as above), the neck, the torso, the thighs, and the knees. When a character is using a shield for cover, their Move is halved. The character may attempt to move at their full Move by making a roll against DX-DB. Obviously, they're pretty simplified. Something I threw together fairly quickly when one of my players wanted to use his shield to take cover from goblin archers, but they work for me and seem like as good a place to start as any.