[Magic] Loophole in the “Tickle” spell

[VIVIT]

One the sillier spells in GURPS Magic is Tickle—a Magery-0 Body Control spell with a prerequisite count of 2 that lets you afflict the subject with a seizure (!?) for its duration of one minute. This is surprisingly potent for such a low-level spell, but it's balanced by the fact that it requires continual concentration—the idea presumably being that the caster must actively exert some sort of telekinesis-like force to do the tickling.

There's one problem, though: spells that require active concentration don't terminate when you stop concentrating. You can resume them at any time. This seems to mean that with a single casting of this spell, you can inflict several seizures by concentrating intermittently. Since a seizure inflicts 1d fatigue when it ends, you could, in theory, use this spell to very quickly drain someone of all FP.

Incapacitating conditions are pretty severe in the first place, so this may not be quite as unbalancing as it seems, but it still feels kind of abusive. And while it's trivial to say, "No, it doesn't work that way," it's not so trivial say how it's supposed to work instead. How long does a seizure have to be before it fatigues you? Do shorter seizures inflict less fatigue? Do longer seizures inflict more fatigue? The seizure condition as described in Basic Set doesn't seem to be intended for a maintainable, variable-length effect like this.

Have you ever seen this spell if in any of your campaigns, and if, how did it work out? Has anyone tried anything weird like this with it before?

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

One the sillier spells in GURPS Magic is Tickle—a Magery-0 Body Control spell with a prerequisite count of 2 that lets you afflict the subject with a seizure (!?) for its duration of one minute. This is surprisingly potent for such a low-level spell, but it's balanced by the fact that it requires continual concentration—the idea presumably being that the caster must actively exert some sort of telekinesis-like force to do the tickling.

There's one problem, though: spells that require active concentration don't terminate when you stop concentrating. You can resume them at any time. This seems to mean that with a single casting of this spell, you can inflict several seizures by concentrating intermittently. Since a seizure inflicts 1d fatigue when it ends, you could, in theory, use this spell to very quickly drain someone of all FP.

Note that spells which require concentration do not change state while you're not concentrating (even if they don't end until you fail to maintain them). You'd have to spend a turn concentrating to pause the effect and then another to resume. This will give the target 1 turn to do something every other turn, while also requiring that the mage use all their time messing with that target (and moving the single step Concentrate allows).

And a GM is certainly within their rights to say that a 1 second seizure is not enough to cause someone to lose much/any fatigue, though in the spirit of fair play they should use the same ruling for NPCs and PCs. If you think it's an issue in games you run, you could always rule that it's 1d6 fatigue capped by the amount of turns in seizure.

Also, if you want to cast any additional spells you take a -3 per spell you're concentrating on instead of the usual -1 per maintained spell.

Lastly, it costs 5 energy to cast (and maintain), so even with skill 15+ you're looking at 2-3 casts for the vast majority of mages without tapping into a Power Stone or resting. As it's a Regular spell it takes a -1 to skill for each yard between the target and the caster('s staff) and it increases in cost for larger targets.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

One the sillier spells in GURPS Magic is Tickle—a Magery-0 Body Control spell with a prerequisite count of 2 that lets you afflict the subject with a seizure (!?) for its duration of one minute. This is surprisingly potent for such a low-level spell, but it's balanced by the fact that it requires continual concentration—the idea presumably being that the caster must actively exert some sort of telekinesis-like force to do the tickling.

There's one problem, though: spells that require active concentration don't terminate when you stop concentrating. You can resume them at any time. This seems to mean that with a single casting of this spell, you can inflict several seizures by concentrating intermittently. Since a seizure inflicts 1d fatigue when it ends, you could, in theory, use this spell to very quickly drain someone of all FP.

Incapacitating conditions are pretty severe in the first place, so this may not be quite as unbalancing as it seems, but it still feels kind of abusive. And while it's trivial to say, "No, it doesn't work that way," it's not so trivial say how it's supposed to work instead. How long does a seizure have to be before it fatigues you? Do shorter seizures inflict less fatigue? Do longer seizures inflict more fatigue? The seizure condition as described in Basic Set doesn't seem to be intended for a maintainable, variable-length effect like this.

Have you ever seen this spell if in any of your campaigns, and if, how did it work out? Has anyone tried anything weird like this with it before?

That's one interpretation. Here's another.

According to Afflictions: Incapacitating Conditions: Seizures (B429), you lose 1d6 FP at the end of your seizure. That's regardless of how long the seizure lasts, you only lose 1d6 FP per seizure, and that's for an actual seizure, not something that mimics its effect, like Tickle.

Tickle is a Body Control spell with a 1 minute duration which can be maintained. Nothing in the text of the spell or the text for Regular spells suggests that the seizure ends when the initial casting ends and you pay your maintenance to continue the spell for another minute. Instead, the seizure-like incapacitation of the tickling continues uninterrupted. It is only when the duration ends and you don't further maintain the spell that the seizure ends and the 1d6 FP is assessed against the subject.

Finally, the closest thing I could find the idea that you could not concentrate without terminating the spell is Duration of Spells and Maintaining Spells: Concentration and Maintenance (Magic, p. 10) which states that to be the case for spells which require constant concentration and change [italics mine], specifically using the example of maneuvering a levitating object. In that case, if you are distracted, the object continues to levitate and its course remains as it was before your distraction. Until you resume Concentration, you can't change the subject's course. However, that isn't the case with Tickle. There is nothing in Tickle that explicitly can be changed, and therefore no ability to break Concentration other than the usual being attacked or injured which impose a penalty to continuing to Concentrate.

Perhaps, you could hold that implicitly, you are changing where the subject is being tickled, moving from under the armpits to the throat and then the soles of the feet, for example. However, it's just as likely that the subject is receiving an all-out tickle targeting every point on his body that is vulnerable to such an attack and thus there is no location to change to.

[VIVIT]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

Note that spells which require concentration do not change state while you're not concentrating (even if they don't end until you fail to maintain them). You'd have to spend a turn concentrating to pause the effect and then another to resume.

I had assumed that the tickling itself was what required "constant manipulation and change"—i.e., that the subject is tickled while you concentrate and not tickled while you don't. I think this the only reasonable interpretation because otherwise you can just stop concentrating as soon as you finish casting the spell and let the effect continue. That would make Tickle a strictly better version of Agonize: cheaper to cast and maintain (5/5 vs. 8/6), unaffected by High Pain Threshold, and—unless you maintain the agony for over three minutes—more fatiguing to the victim (1d
or more FP per casting vs. 1 FP per minute).

This will give the target 1 turn to do something every other turn, while also requiring that the mage use all their time messing with that target (and moving the single step Concentrate allows).

Seizures make you fall down, though, and 1 turn isn't enough time to stand up. I suppose a victim with spells of their own that they can cast without a ritual might be able to do something?

[VIVIT]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

that's for an actual seizure, not something that mimics its effect, like Tickle.

I always figured that the seizure affliction was just the incapacitating condition representing uncontrollable full-body convulsions, not that it was a seizure in strict neurological terms. GURPS Magic already has a lot of ad-hoc description of spell effects, so if the effects of the spell were just, "you rotfl on the floor lol'ing and can do nothing," I don't think it would bother referencing a rule in Basic Set. The DFRPG version of the spell says “treat this as a seizure” even more directly.

There is nothing in Tickle that explicitly can be changed, and therefore no ability to break Concentration other than the usual being attacked or injured which impose a penalty to continuing to Concentrate.

This is a strange interpretation because it assumes that your attention is somehow transfixed by the spell while the effect continues, unless some event outside your control makes you involuntarily stop. Naturalistic intuition suggests that you should be able to just stop concentrating, and there's nothing anywhere in the text that suggests otherwise.

Perhaps, you could hold that implicitly, you are changing where the subject is being tickled, moving from under the armpits to the throat and then the soles of the feet, for example. However, it's just as likely that the subject is receiving an all-out tickle targeting every point on his body that is vulnerable to such an attack and thus there is no location to change to.

Again, I assume the spell requires concentration because the tickling isn't automatic—that the caster is performing some sort of Spooky Tickling at a Distance, and must take a maneuver in order to do so just as you would need to take a maneuver to physically tickle someone.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

I always figured that the seizure affliction was just the incapacitating condition representing uncontrollable full-body convulsions, not that it was a seizure in strict neurological terms. GURPS Magic already has a lot of ad-hoc description of spell effects, so if the effects of the spell were just, "you rotfl on the floor lol'ing and can do nothing," I don't think it would bother referencing a rule in Basic Set. The DFRPG version of the spell says “treat this as a seizure” even more directly.

Agreed. However, the text I referred to was for an incapacitating affliction that was a seizure, not for Tickling's incapacitating condition. My point was that Tickling's incapacitating condition wouldn't be any worse and that that text did not support the idea that you could get multiple 1d6 FP losses from a single use of the spell.

This is a strange interpretation because it assumes that your attention is somehow transfixed by the spell while the effect continues, unless some event outside your control makes you involuntarily stop. Naturalistic intuition suggests that you should be able to just stop concentrating, and there's nothing anywhere in the text that suggests otherwise.

There's nothing strange about the interpretation, though it may well be unique. OTOH, we have a seemingly unique situation. There is not one single spell in the entirety of GURPS Magic that has "(requires Concentration)" as part of the listed Cost. Therefore, naturalistic intuition be demned, sir, the cost supports the view that the intent is not that you can turn the Tickling on and off while the spell is in effect, but that you can't take any other action in the form of a Maneuver (such as Step and Attack) while the Tickling spell is in effect.

Again, I assume the spell requires concentration because the tickling isn't automatic—that the caster is performing some sort of Spooky Tickling at a Distance, and must take a maneuver in order to do so just as you would need to take a maneuver to physically tickle someone.

That's your assumption and it supports your view. My assumptions support my view. What neither of our assumptions do is refute the other's. As it is, my interpretation remains what it was presented as, an alternative to yours, an alternative where the loophole simply doesn't exist.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

One the sillier spells in GURPS Magic is Tickle—a Magery-0 Body Control spell with a prerequisite count of 2 that lets you afflict the subject with a seizure (!?) for its duration of one minute. This is surprisingly potent for such a low-level spell...

One of the most epic and hysterical episodes in one of my old games (the game that gave Peter the name Steric the Red, in fact, for Felltower) had my dearly departed friend Jason cast tickle on my big bad of the session, an Ogre or Orc Magi who stomped onto the scene in a fully intimidating manner, only to be zapped with Tickler and ingloriously fail every resistance roll and saving throw.

"OK, he falls down, and...wait, A FULL MINUTE? This is just embarrassing. His minions are embarrassed for him, and quit the field in shame."

Enshrined forever in memory.

(sniff sniff. taken from us too soon.)

[Fred Brackin]

I went back to the original text because sometimes 4e attempts to integrate spells into the (new)4e standard conditions end up as odd.

Giving feed for some people's opinions Tickle is from Grimoire which is 10 years before 4e or the general idea of a whole category of Incapacitating Conditions. So, not surprisingly there was no mention of "Seizure" or Incapacitation (or FP loss either).

The effects were severe though. No Actions were possible and Active Defenses were -4. However, Duration was only 1 _second_ and Concentration was required to Maintain. Base Cost to Cast And Maintain was 2 so only a caster of Skill-20 could do the Spell for a minute much less longer.

Revert to that description and your problems lessen significantly though it could still be a fight-winner.

[Plane]

regarding the item versions on M36...

(a) does the wand/staff/feather need to touch the subject only once to initiate the spell, every second to keep concentration, or once per minute to allow maintaining?

(b) how is the energy cost of the spell handled by the chair/cushion/pillow ? Is it automatic and permanent?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Plane

regarding the item versions on M36...

(a) does the wand/staff/feather need to touch the subject only once to initiate the spell, every second to keep concentration, or once per minute to allow maintaining?

(b) how is the energy cost of the spell handled by the chair/cushion/pillow ? Is it automatic and permanent?

(a) would be once to initiate and that would be all that was needed.

For(b) even in the 4e version the Item is specified to be "Always on". There is never an energy cost for Always On Items.