Horizontal Question

[Phantasm]

Got a question for folks:

The Horizontal trait seems to imply that you have to have four legs. However, bipedal theropods are generally depicted as being in a horizontal posture, despite having only two legs. Would this trait be suitable for them, or am I missing something in the fine print?

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

The game effects of horizontal are that you have difficulty using your hands or other grasping limbs because you have to walk on them. You can use your hands, or run at your full speed, but you can't do both at the same time.

Usually this means a species has four legs and no other limbs. Therapods, which have hands that they usually don't walk on, aren't Horizontal. Elephants, which don't walk on their trunks, shouldn't have Horizontal either, even though it is in their Basic Set template.

Most therapods don't seem to have opposable thumbs, though. Troodon and some others may have, but a lot of them probably don't. So depending on the genus, Bad Grip or No Fine Manipulators may be applicable. But not Horizontal.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

The game effects of horizontal are that you have difficulty using your hands or other grasping limbs because you have to walk on them. You can use your hands, or run at your full speed, but you can't do both at the same time.

Usually this means a species has four legs and no other limbs. Therapods, which have hands that they usually don't walk on, aren't Horizontal. Elephants, which don't walk on their trunks, shouldn't have Horizontal either, even though it is in their Basic Set template.

Most therapods don't seem to have opposable thumbs, though. Troodon and some others may have, but a lot of them probably don't. So depending on the genus, Bad Grip or No Fine Manipulators may be applicable. But not Horizontal.

I think Horizontal is more complicated than that, that's why they have it.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Elephants, which don't walk on their trunks, shouldn't have Horizontal either, even though it is in their Basic Set template.

The justification appears to be that their morphology prevents easy use of their forelimbs (and makes their kicks weaker). Having an Extra Arm (the trunk) doesn't change that.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

But isn't another effect of Horizontal on elephants to prevent them from using their trunks to hold anything while walking at full speed? Which makes no sense.

[nerdvana]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

But isn't another effect of Horizontal on elephants to prevent them from using their trunks to hold anything while walking at full speed? Which makes no sense.

I interpret Horizontal in the RAW to assume only four limbs. When adding new limbs they can sometimes be exceptions. A centaur would not have an exception (they are not horizontal even though part of their body is) but an elephant would be (they are horizontal but have an exotic additional limb).

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

To me elephants are one-armed centauroids, so I don't really see any difference. When building bilaterally symmetrical races, if I'm giving them more legs than arms, and the arms have a different strength from the rest of the body, it usually makes them centauroid in my eyes.

[Not another shrubbery]

Horizontal is properly a morphological trait. As the text says, "You have a horizontal posture". The mechanical effects of the disadvantage are related to and derive from that posture. An elephant's legs are affected the same as a cat's, or other typical quadruped's. That their trunk (Extra Arm) is not does not change their basic posture. A true centaur that lost the use of his arms would not suddenly gain the Horizontal disad, but would just get No Fine Manipulators, because his human torso is still upright. Likewise, an elephant that loses the use of its trunk doesn't suddenly become Horizontal. Its posture hasn't changed... it was Horizontal to begin with, it just lost the Extra Arm advantage.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Elephants don't have Extra Arm, even in RAW. They have One Arm. I'm not sure if Extra Legs are spelled out. But their forelegs are not arms in any way. They aren't fine manipulators, for starters.



The real problem is that Horizontal is a meta-trait composed of two separate disadvantages and a feature:

Your Arms are Legs, and you can't use them while walking.
If this was Foot Manipulators, it would be -6 for a quadruped, but in RAW Foot Manipulators has slightly different effects.
Elephants do not have this effect in real life at all. They don't need Horizontal to tell you that their forelegs are legs, they just need Extra Legs. All legs should go by the same rules.
Quadrupeds with No Fine Manipulators might not really get any effect from this either, but I'm not sure. Even paws are good for at least batting things around. But fundamentally, paws are feet, and there are already rules for feet.

Weak Kick: -1 per die.
Not all quadrupeds have this. Somewhere in RAW, I think it is mentioned that certain quadrupeds, such as horses, are adapted to kick and don't have this.

You take up 2x hexes.
Should be a feature.


Horses and elephants are both examples of quadrupeds which should not have the full effects of Horizontal. Centaurs probably only have the double hex feature.

Therapods don't have foot manipulators and shouldn't have weak kicks, so taking up more hexes should just be a feature. If your arms and legs still work just as well, there isn't any disadvantage.



This becomes a real issue if you want sentient elephants, or sentient horses (Companion? Narnians?) in a game. Giving elephants Horizontal and then house-ruling that it has no effect on their One Arm means that -1 per die to kick damage gives them back 10 points. This is far too much for a disadvantage. The nearly opposite advantage, Hooves, gives +1 per die to kick plus foot DR, for just 3 points. I'd consider Weak Kick to be -2 points, or even -1 point.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Elephants don't have Extra Arm, even in RAW. They have One Arm. I'm not sure if Extra Legs are spelled out. But their forelegs are not arms in any way. They aren't fine manipulators, for starters.



The real problem is that Horizontal is a meta-trait composed of two separate disadvantages and a feature:

[...]

Well, the examples in Basic don't support this PoV. For example, the Ground Vehicle has No Manipulators, No Legs (Tracked/Wheeled), and Horizontal. Apparently Horizontal is primarily a posture disadvantage, with everything else being consequences of it.