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Old 03-23-2023, 04:05 AM   #1
johndallman
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Default Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
It just came to me that BL might be one of the things currently giving Gurps a reputation for complexity. I can handle the math easily enough (and do it in my head until we get into too many digits) but others? Maybe not.
I doubt it, since that reputation was established well before 4e.
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It's probably a contributor, but a minor one. GURPS has a lot of math. It's not advanced math (percentiles are as advanced as it gets) but quantity has a quality of its own.
The basic calculation for Speed has division, and Move has truncation. Those related concepts and terms can also be confusing. Two of the active defences also involve division, and all three involve collecting bonuses from various places.

GURPS is unforgiving of errors in those calculations. If you get them wrong, you likely go in the wrong place in the turn sequence, can't get to the right place in time, or get hit. In the D&D versions I know, the relevant numbers are either rolled randomly or arbitrary (rather than calculated) and more consistent across characters.

I remember a Witch World session where we'd invited some extra players for a try-out. Two of them were Cambridge academics in the post-doctoral phases of their careers.
  • The theoretical physicist liked all the numbers. He could do the arithmetic without conscious thought, and preferred to remember the formulae and evaluate them each round, rather than pre-calculating and writing the numbers down.
  • The historian could do the arithmetic, but did not love it. It's just dawned on me that she may have thought that it was necessary to do it all again each round, rather than being able to re-calculate. That's an easy mistake to make when another new player is doing so with great confidence. Ever since, she has described GURPS as "number-crunchy" and avoided it.

Last edited by johndallman; 03-23-2023 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Improvement
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Old 03-23-2023, 08:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I doubt it, since that reputation was established well before 4e.
GURPS Vehicles (and Robots) was a massive contributor to the math complexity reputation.

But encumbrance rules were certainly much simpler to calculate in 3E: ST x2/4/6/12.
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Old 03-23-2023, 08:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
GURPS Vehicles (and Robots) was a massive contributor to the math complexity reputation.

But encumbrance rules were certainly much simpler to calculate in 3E: ST x2/4/6/12.
As opposed to BL, that you look up on a table, then multiply by x1, x2, x3, x6? That's all of one more step, and it's a simple one.

Note in both cases you're already using a table to find your ST-based damage.
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Old 03-23-2023, 09:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

Lately, I've been pondering over encumbrance rules in various ttrpgs. I've noticed many games use a widely accepted encumbrance system where items are divided into 5 lbs. increments (and even smaller categories for collections of little things like arrows, stones, and the like). People find this method more straightforward than simply adding or subtracting the actual weight of items.
I can't help but wonder why we're so hesitant to use a bit of math in our games, especially when we have all these handy-dandy calculating devices at our fingertips nowadays. What do you all think about this?
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Old 03-23-2023, 10:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
Lately, I've been pondering over encumbrance rules in various ttrpgs. I've noticed many games use a widely accepted encumbrance system where items are divided into 5 lbs. increments (and even smaller categories for collections of little things like arrows, stones, and the like). People find this method more straightforward than simply adding or subtracting the actual weight of items.
I can't help but wonder why we're so hesitant to use a bit of math in our games, especially when we have all these handy-dandy calculating devices at our fingertips nowadays. What do you all think about this?
If given the option, people will always want to do the easier choice.

Should you walk to the store that is 20mins away (by walking) or drive? People will want to drive.

This is bad because it makes them lazy and weaker. How does this relate to the topic? They become weaker in the field of Math.

Doing simple arithmetic as adding and subtracting has become such a difficult thing for most people even though it is easy because they have gotten lazy.

None of the "Math" within GURPS has ever caused me issues because I make sure I practice my Math and never fall behind. If something is a little difficult then I practice till its not, most people don't do this and that is a big problem.

"But I HATE Math! I can never get it!" - Then you have not practiced enough and had horrible teachers.

simplifying the "Math" means you end up with dumber people which lowers what constitutes as "easy" which means you will eventually have to lower it again. Its sad that this is going on.
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Old 03-23-2023, 10:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
As opposed to BL, that you look up on a table, then multiply by x1, x2, x3, x6? That's all of one more step, and it's a simple one.
Three simple steps (look at ST on your sheet, look up corresponding BL on a table, multiply by a factor from a list) is half again as much work as two simple steps (look at ST on your sheet, multiply by a factor from a list). That's not necessarily insignificant - of course, that's why BL is listed separately on your character sheet... and in fact why your encumbrance levels are already listed there, so you don't have to recalculate all the time.

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
I can't help but wonder why we're so hesitant to use a bit of math in our games, especially when we have all these handy-dandy calculating devices at our fingertips nowadays. What do you all think about this?
A lot of people hate even simple math. Heck, I used to hate math, and early on it was consistently one of my worst subjects, in no small part because of those cursed multiplication tables (although from observing my peers, I think it's algebra that winds up turning most people strongly against math, when that was ironically when I started liking and doing well at it). I'm not sure if it's an issue with the way it's taught, if it's something that just never "clicks" for certain people (much like artistry for myself), or something else. And, as the forums tend to self-select for gearheads, I suspect our little niche group isn't going to figure that out.
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Last edited by Varyon; 03-23-2023 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Forgot to include the primary part I was meaning to say...
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Old 03-23-2023, 11:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

I did math team in high school and while I have definitely let some higher math rust since college I'm a lot handier than most people. And I am a detailed inventory loyalist. I still find adding up a list of item weights downright painful and not quick.

Of course spreadsheets handily solve that, but they're not integrated with gaming tools in my limited experience.
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Old 03-23-2023, 11:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

The main ways GURPS inventory management is more complex than other games are:
  1. There are really really long equipment lists. The more items you have to search through, the longer it takes to choose equipment.
  2. Items are often more subdivided than in other game systems; a character whose inventory list is ten items in another game system might wind up being twenty items in GURPS.
  3. Prices and weights often aren't rounded
A similar issue applies to skills:
  1. GURPS has a really long skill list; a character who has five skills in another game system might have thirty skills in GURPS.
  2. Skill prices are not consistent; you have to look up the skills to figure out which price table it actually uses.
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Skill prices are not consistent; you have to look up the skills to figure out which price table it actually uses.
Do you mean which difficulty offset it uses? In 4e that's the only difference in pricing. (Though there are a few weird defaults.)
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
I can't help but wonder why we're so hesitant to use a bit of math in our games, especially when we have all these handy-dandy calculating devices at our fingertips nowadays. What do you all think about this?
Some people just don't like doing math. It's difficult and/or has very unpleasant associations for some people. For others, it's not necessarily difficult; it's just tedious, and that has an outsized negative impact on their enjoyment of what's supposed to be a fun leisure activity.

And those calculating devices don't help as much as you'd think because that shifts you from the drudgery of doing lots of simple arithmetic to the drudgery of transcribing lots of arbitrary numbers to your calculating device. There's always going to be a non-trivial audience which wants to get on with playing the game and sees either or both of those as a dull bit of homework they have to do before they ever get to the table. For some people, front-loading doesn't work.
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