The Gauntlet

[Brad Shantz]

Hey, guys,

So, my son and I have been playing The Gauntlet from the Reinforcements rule set. (6e) I'm a 40 year veteran of playing Ogre, and I'm getting really frustrated. Maybe it's just dice variance, but I'm stumped on this one. We've done the scenario with him playing the MK V, and I'm the "large number of infantry".

I can get the G.E.V.s up to take out his weapons pretty easily, but then have limited infantry left to finish off his treads before he leaves the board.

I've tried focusing:
- Only on treads. Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. The OGRE just takes everything out.
- Mixture of both - Just can't get all the treads destroyed, or all of the weapons destroyed before he leaves the board.
- Only weapons - Then, I doin't have enough infantry "South" enough to take out the rest of the treads.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Brad Shantz

Hey, guys,

So, my son and I have been playing The Gauntlet from the Reinforcements rule set. (6e) I'm a 40 year veteran of playing Ogre, and I'm getting really frustrated. Maybe it's just dice variance, but I'm stumped on this one. We've done the scenario with him playing the MK V, and I'm the "large number of infantry".

I can get the G.E.V.s up to take out his weapons pretty easily, but then have limited infantry left to finish off his treads before he leaves the board.

I've tried focusing:
- Only on treads. Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. The OGRE just takes everything out.
- Mixture of both - Just can't get all the treads destroyed, or all of the weapons destroyed before he leaves the board.
- Only weapons - Then, I doin't have enough infantry "South" enough to take out the rest of the treads.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

Obviously, the biggest issue is the speed of the Ogre. If the INF get behind it, you are pretty much hosed. You have to get it down to M2 as fast as possible to give the INF time to stay engaged. Using the GEV-PCs helps alleviate this a little bit, but leaving the INF mounted makes them an easy target. You can't be afraid to just throw INF at it, but it is definitely hard to get close enough in large numbers.

Where are you placing your town hexes? a 3/1 INF is a D9 in town, so that helps with survivability a bit. They will eventually have to leave the town to engage, but at least they will be more likely to be alive as the Ogre gets close.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Brad Shantz

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

I haven't tried this, but...

Try an extreme force-preservation tactic: Drop the ogre's speed to M2, then strip off all the weapons - including the AP guns. (There. I said it. In a public forum.) Then rip off the rest of the treads as the helpless ogre flees.

On average every time you remove an SB you save an INF per turn. Every time you remove three AP guns you save an extra INF per turn. Take away that ogre's ability to kill your INF and many more of them will be around at the end to rip treads off.

[offsides]

I agree that it's worth the attempt. In a very infantry-heavy scenario, it becomes "cost-effective" to take out AP guns much more so than it does when there's armor to help out. Plus, given that they're D1, an attack against an AP gun is just as likely to hit as an attack on treads, with the added benefit of reducing the Ogre's ability to kill you. Yes, treads are still the "big bad" you have to kill, but even taking a shot or two per turn against AP can pay off big in the long run.

Another idea related to it - use the GEV-PCs to drop single INF around the Ogre early on (that is, 1/1 INF in each hex rather than a full group of 3) and use them to take out the AP guns while reducing the efficiency of the secondaries. If you can take out enough of the AP guns quickly, you can then gang up on the bigger weapons (and treads) having preserved more of your initial forces. I have no idea how well this would work (and I don't have the scenario here ATM, so I can't check it out in detail), but it may be worth a try. Good luck, and have fun testing different options :)

[chicagoviking]

I have a question about ramming in this scenario:

If an Ogre with AP weapons left enters a hex that contains a GEV-PC carrying a 3/1 Infantry squad, does the Ogre ram the GEV-PC and automatically reduce the Infantry? I was playing solo, so I ruled that it did, because it made sense to me, but I'd like to know the official answer.

Thanks!

[Mack_JB]

Reading the newest rule set (Battlefields version) the INF riding the GEV-PC may elect to dismount upon initiation of the ram -- unless they mounted the GEV-PC on that same turn (rule 6.01.2)

If I read it correctly, if they don't dismount, they are treated as part of the GEV-PC, and risk either outright death (on a roll of 4-6) or a one step reduction on a disable roll of 1-3.

If the Ogre movement ends with enemy units still in the same hex, the Ogre then has its combat phase as usual (rule 6.08) and can apply AP to INF as normal there (a GEV-PC carries a 3/1 INF team, so a Mk. V Ogre could shoot all 12 AP at them for 4:1 odds).

[chicagoviking]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

Reading the newest rule set (Battlefields version) the INF riding the GEV-PC may elect to dismount upon initiation of the ram -- unless they mounted the GEV-PC on that same turn (rule 6.01.2)

If I read it correctly, if they don't dismount, they are treated as part of the GEV-PC, and risk either outright death (on a roll of 4-6) or a one step reduction on a disable roll of 1-3.

If the Ogre movement ends with enemy units still in the same hex, the Ogre then has its combat phase as usual (rule 6.08) and can apply AP to INF as normal there (a GEV-PC carries a 3/1 INF team, so a Mk. V Ogre could shoot all 12 AP at them for 4:1 odds).

Thanks a bunch!

[Deimos]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

If the Ogre movement ends with enemy units still in the same hex, the Ogre then has its combat phase as usual (rule 6.08) and can apply AP to INF as normal there (a GEV-PC carries a 3/1 INF team, so a Mk. V Ogre could shoot all 12 AP at them for 4:1 odds).

Wouldn't that mean that you were using the AP to fire on the INF while they were mounted? I don't have a copy of the rules at hand, but I've always played that mounted INF can't be targeted separately from the vehicle they are riding and suffer the effect of the die roll based on their defense.

Then again, this brings up an edge case. AP normally is ineffective against vehicles, but can it be used against a vehicle carrying INF? That'd mean that the vehicle isn't harmed (if it has a defense other than 0), but the INF suffer an attack of the appropriate strength.

I've never run across this in a game, so I never thought about it before. But now that I have, I'd allow it. But how to handle it? One attack with all the AP that the Ogre player wants to use or allow the AP to be divided up into groups with separate attacks each? I'd allow the AP to be divided up into groups and the results of each attack be evaluated before rolling the next attack, just like normal combat. That seems to be the most KISS like way to approach it.

[Mack_JB]

Originally Posted by Deimos

Wouldn't that mean that you were using the AP to fire on the INF while they were mounted?

My reply was more to the fact that INF were dismounted at the initiation of the ram -- INF riding a rammed vehicle tend to die rather easily, so having them off the vehicle for the ram makes sense. Then the Ogre uses the AP in its fire phase if they are still in the same hex.

You're right though, it's an edge case, but likely covered in the combat rules where riders on vehicles suffer attacks on a separate die roll (rule 5.11.2).

[offsides]

I would argue that you CAN fire AP guns at mounted INF, it's just that the vehicle is unaffected by them regardless of the die roll since they can't be hurt by AP. There's no reason the mounted INF can't be fired on by AP guns, they just aren't targeted separately. An edge case, perhaps, but not one that isn't already covered by a reasonable reading of the rules. As it says:

(3.04.2) Antipersonnel (AP). A variety of weapons effective only against battlesuit armor and thin-skinned (zero defense) targets.

(7.05.1) AP weapons. Some units have antipersonnel weapons, effective only against infantry (including special infantry types) and D0 units such as a regular (unarmored) CP.

It doesn't say that AP can't target non INF/D0 targets, just that it isn't effective against them. therefore mounted INF are still vulnerable even if the carrier isn't.