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Old 05-18-2023, 09:33 AM   #1
cupbearer
 
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Default Wet torch

Hey

If a pc swims under water, and their pack gets wet, Would that prevent torches from being lit?

If yes would a torch light again after drying?
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: Wet torch

I think it would depend on how the torch is made. Water prevents/puts out fire in two ways. First, submersion blocks the fuel's access to oxygen, and you can't have fire without that. Second, catching something on fire involves raising its temperature (not necessarily to the point of self-ignition though, flames themselves are something of a catalyst that lets things ignite at a lower temperature... but they still need to get rather warm) and water absorbs a lot of heat to increase its temperature (high heat capacity) and even more to go from liquid to gas - and considering most things won't ignite below 100C, you have to get it past that point before it will ignite (if you shove a wet stick into a fire, the water has to get boiled away before the stick can heat up enough to catch flame).

I think torches typically consist of a wooden handle, with a tip wrapped in cloth or similar and coated in something flammable and hydrophobic, like pitch. I think that with a torch like that the pitch-coated bit (but not necessarily the cloth beneath it) will shed its water fairly rapidly - wipe it off with something dry if you have it or swing it around a few times to get (most of) the water off, and the pitch should probably light; that flame will probably dry the next layer before it needs to go up in flame, so it should burn normally, but I may be mistaken (this may also depend on how much pitch or similar was used, and on the exact construction). Of course, there is the risk - particularly if the torch wasn't in an enclosed container - that the waterlogged cloth under the pitch came loose and floated away, leaving you with just a stick.

tl;dr: I would allow a typical torch to be lit fairly shortly after being submerged. The only reason it wouldn't light even after drying would be if whatever part of it was flammable was washed away. I'll note this is assuming a hydrophobic flammable part, like pitch - if it's just porous like wood and cloth, it's going to soak up water and won't light until it's dry.
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Last edited by Varyon; 05-18-2023 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 05-18-2023, 12:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wet torch

OTOH burning wet firewood is always nasty even if you start the fire with something dry. And torches are dim and smoky at the best of times. So I would give the players increasingly difficult problems depending on how long the torches were in the water and whether they leave the torches out to dry in bright sun for several days or just try to shake and push the water off in a dungeon corridor. They are adventurers, they should be ready to deal with vision and HT penalties from smoke or their torch going out at just the wrong time right?
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Old 05-18-2023, 12:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wet torch

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OTOH burning wet firewood is always nasty even if you start the fire with something dry. And torches are dim and smoky at the best of times. So I would give the players increasingly difficult problems depending on how long the torches were in the water and whether they leave the torches out to dry in bright sun for several days or just try to shake and push the water off in a dungeon corridor. They are adventurers, they should be ready to deal with vision and HT penalties from smoke or their torch going out at just the wrong time right?
There's also the potential for the pitch not lasting long enough to evaporate off all the water from the cloth, resulting in the torch not lasting as long as normal - your pitch burns off, and now you just have a slightly-less-damp stick with a bundle of damp, slightly-charred cloth at one end (which probably unravels in short order on account of no longer having pitch holding it together). But I don't know how likely that is to happen. Is that something that would only happen with cheaply-made torches, or do you actually need high-quality ones to prevent it? Of course, if you're getting that deep into realism, the characters shouldn't be using torches anyway, as those don't really last very long at all - oil lanterns or similar are a much better option.
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Old 05-18-2023, 07:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Wet torch

Yeah, people today have expectations of fuels that are based on kerosene and other refined hydrocarbons, and olive oil or pine pitch just are not that energy-dense or easy to ignite. Personally I think embracing the difficulty of functioning in dark underground spaces would be cool but a lot of games look for ways to handwave it.
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Old 05-18-2023, 09:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: Wet torch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
OTOH burning wet firewood is always nasty even if you start the fire with something dry. And torches are dim and smoky at the best of times. So I would give the players increasingly difficult problems depending on how long the torches were in the water and whether they leave the torches out to dry in bright sun for several days or just try to shake and push the water off in a dungeon corridor. They are adventurers, they should be ready to deal with vision and HT penalties from smoke or their torch going out at just the wrong time right?
You normally won't burn the wood except the tip, just the fuel (tree sap, pitch, oil, or animal fat) and the 'wick' soaked with the fuel (bark stuffed with grass and moss, ... or, much better, cloth).
You actually want green wood for the handle in order to protect your hand !

If you have cotton (not wool) or perhaps linen, you can make a nice torch by soaking a strip of cloth in melted wax and spiraling it on top of the handle. I think that kind of torch would mostly be waterproof (it is made of waxed cloth :) ).
I imagine you could waterproof a torch made with another fuel by coating it in beeswax, but it wouldn't be easy ...parafin is much nicer, but likely not available. Covering torches with a "sock" made of waxed cloth for travel may be possible, too ? never tried or heard about it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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Old 05-18-2023, 09:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wet torch

If you could afford beeswax, you would normally use it in candles, not smoky sputtering torches. The candles can even be placed inside a lantern so they are wind-resistant!

Cooking water out of nearby organic matter is bad for fires and everyone I know who has played around with low-tech movable lights finds endless complications and annoyances.
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Wet torch

Possible? Yes. Quickly? Of course not.

Lighting fires low-tech takes a good while. Hollywood loves to depict flint-and-steel taking only a couple strikes to work, and igniting something that's plainly been soaked in lighter fluid. This method would very seldom ignite a pitch torch even if dry. Flint-and-steel seeking to ignite good dry tinder can go forty or fifty strokes (if you're unlucky and there's a wind). That tinder isn't hard to find in the outdoors, but likely isn't abundant underground.

Once you have your tinder going, then I'd light a candle. THAT's what I'd hold under the torch until it caught.
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wet torch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think it would depend on how the torch is made. Water prevents/puts out fire in two ways. First, submersion blocks the fuel's access to oxygen, and you can't have fire without that. Second, catching something on fire involves raising its temperature (not necessarily to the point of self-ignition though, flames themselves are something of a catalyst that lets things ignite at a lower temperature... but they still need to get rather warm) and water absorbs a lot of heat to increase its temperature (high heat capacity) and even more to go from liquid to gas - and considering most things won't ignite below 100C, you have to get it past that point before it will ignite (if you shove a wet stick into a fire, the water has to get boiled away before the stick can heat up enough to catch flame).

I think torches typically consist of a wooden handle, with a tip wrapped in cloth or similar and coated in something flammable and hydrophobic, like pitch. I think that with a torch like that the pitch-coated bit (but not necessarily the cloth beneath it) will shed its water fairly rapidly - wipe it off with something dry if you have it or swing it around a few times to get (most of) the water off, and the pitch should probably light; that flame will probably dry the next layer before it needs to go up in flame, so it should burn normally, but I may be mistaken (this may also depend on how much pitch or similar was used, and on the exact construction). Of course, there is the risk - particularly if the torch wasn't in an enclosed container - that the waterlogged cloth under the pitch came loose and floated away, leaving you with just a stick.

tl;dr: I would allow a typical torch to be lit fairly shortly after being submerged. The only reason it wouldn't light even after drying would be if whatever part of it was flammable was washed away. I'll note this is assuming a hydrophobic flammable part, like pitch - if it's just porous like wood and cloth, it's going to soak up water and won't light until it's dry.
Well let's assume the two types given in Low tech

there is a basic torch of which no description is given,
then there is a fancy torch which has pitch on it (allowing you to run without it going out).
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Old 05-18-2023, 11:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wet torch

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupbearer View Post
Well let's assume the two types given in Low tech

there is a basic torch of which no description is given,
then there is a fancy torch which has pitch on it (allowing you to run without it going out).
For this purpose I would treat the type impregnated with animal and vegetable fats, and the type impregnated with pitch the same, and I explained how I would handle it above: depending on how long the torches were soaked and how the characters dry them, I would decide whether they fail to ignite at all, or burn dimly giving vision penalties, or seem to ignite but go out or start to flicker at just the wrong time, or give HT and vision penalties from smoke. If its a very brief immersion and they are very careful about drying them out, maybe the torches even work!

Until someone does an experiment with a variety of types of torches and rushlights, I would start from the general principle that fire and water don't mix and low-tech portable light sources are annoying and barely functional.

Edit: I agree with RGTraynor that you also have to consider how they are lighting the torches. Normally you need completely dry tinder to start a fire by low-tech means, and most tinderboxes will not hold out if held underwater. I don't think even modern matches will light if they have been soaked in water for minutes!
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