Dungeon Fantasy Language Murphy?

[sir_pudding]

AFAICT, only Clerics, Wizards, and Bards have Languages on their templates. If you follow the suggestion for Advancement, and let characters only purchase traits that are on their templates (or whole new lenses), then characters with other Templates can only learn their native language. Does this mean that an Elf Knight can only learn elvish or "common" but not both?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

AFAICT, only Clerics, Wizards, and Bards have Languages on their templates. If you follow the suggestion for Advancement, and let characters only purchase traits that are on their templates (or whole new lenses), then characters with other Templates can only learn their native language. Does this mean that an Elf Knight can only learn elvish or "common" but not both?

It's interesting to note that none of the racial templates mention anything about languages, and languages in general are skimmed over in the entire DF line, except appearing in 3 templates.

Of course, if you play with "everything and everyone speaks common" it makes it pointless for clerics, wizards, or bards to TAKE extra languages, so SOMEONE has to speak SOMETHING.

Our group went with "Nonhumans can come from a human-dominated or multi-racial city/region, speaking Common as their native language with the option to purchase their species-language, or they can come from a race-dominated homeland, with the requirement to buy Common so the rest of the PCs can speak to them. Barbarians and anyone else who manages to pick up Social Stigma: Minority Group, should probably also speak a foreign language as their native, but it's not required. People from Away speak a different language than people here, no matter their species."

My minotaur Barbarian speaks "Northerner" (the northern wastes equivalent to Common) as his native and the local "Common" at Accented, for example.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

It's interesting to note that none of the racial templates mention anything about languages, and languages in general are skimmed over in the entire DF line, except appearing in 3 templates.

Of course, if you play with "everything and everyone speaks common" it makes it pointless for clerics, wizards, or bards to TAKE extra languages, so SOMEONE has to speak SOMETHING.

It also mentions other languages on Dungeon Fantasy 2 page 10 under negotiation.

Our group went with "Nonhumans can come from a human-dominated or multi-racial city/region, speaking Common as their native language with the option to purchase their species-language, or they can come from a race-dominated homeland, with the requirement to buy Common so the rest of the PCs can speak to them. Barbarians and anyone else who manages to pick up Social Stigma: Minority Group, should probably also speak a foreign language as their native, but it's not required. People from Away speak a different language than people here, no matter their species."

Yes, that was exactly my thoughts as well. Essentially foreign or non-human characters that are not Bards, Clerics, or Wizards should be able to learn one additional language regardless of template.

It is however something of a Murphy in DF as written, though. "In GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Elven Knights can't ever learn to speak a common tongue!"
I think the really amusing thing is that the Elven Knight can never learn to speak common unless he "multiclasses" with a Bard, Cleric, or Wizard template.

[Kromm]

Guys, please see Dungeon Fantasy 2, p. 10: "Most intelligent beings in dungeon fantasy have at least some command of the 'generic human' or 'common' tongue of adventurers." In short, DF uses one common language except when the GM specifically sets a monster language or a dead language in the PCs' path as a challenge, in which case the professions who have Languages on their template are the best-equipped to step up. There's really no silly rule here, because elves just speak the same old common tongue as everybody else. There might be an "Elvish" language, but it's found in old poetry and spellbooks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Guys, please see Dungeon Fantasy 2, p. 10: "Most intelligent beings in dungeon fantasy have at least some command of the 'generic human' or 'common' tongue of adventurers." In short, DF uses one common language except when the GM specifically sets a monster language or a dead language in the PCs' path as a challenge, in which case the professions who have Languages on their template are the best-equipped to step up. There's really no silly rule here, because elves just speak the same old common tongue as everybody else. There might be an "Elvish" language, but it's found in old poetry and spellbooks.

Hmm... Doesn't that seem counter to the expectations of players of non-humans and foreigners, who IME usually speak a ethnic tongue in other DF games (even IIRC AD&D). I became aware of this when the player of a Troll character was trying to figure out how to speak both Troll and Common.

I certainly foresee arguments of this kind:
GM: You see an Inscription in Dwarven Runes
Dwarf: Ach, I read it.
GM: You can't read Dwarven
Dwarf: But I'm a Dwarf!
GM: Yes, but Dwarves don't speak Dwarven, they speak common like everybody else.
Dwarf: That's ridiculous. Fine I put some unspent points in Dwarven.
GM: You can't, Knights don't have Languages on their templates.
Dwarf: Um, yeah. Can we play a different game instead?

[Kromm]

It's up to you, but given the implementation of Languages in 4e, I think it's Not Fun for dungeon adventurers to have to blow up to 6 points to be bilingual. That said, most other FRPGs assume that non-casters are illiterate anyway, so there's no loss in giving somebody two spoken tongues at Native level instead of one that's spoken and written at that level.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's up to you, but given the implementation of Languages in 4e, I think it's Not Fun for dungeon adventurers to have to blow up to 6 points to be bilingual.

I wasn't thinking it should be required. I just think it would be Not Fun to forbid it. Some players of "ethnic" characters are going to always IME, want to be as ethnic as possible.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I certainly foresee arguments of this kind:
GM: You see an Inscription in Dwarven Runes
Dwarf: Ach, I read it.
GM: You can't read Dwarven
Dwarf: But I'm a Dwarf!
GM: Yes, but Dwarves don't speak Dwarven, they speak common like everybody else.
Dwarf: That's ridiculous. Fine I put some unspent points in Dwarven.
GM: You can't, Knights don't have Languages on their templates.
Dwarf: Um, yeah. Can we play a different game instead?

I think it might be more in the spirit to describe them as "ancient dwarven runes" rather than "dwarven runes".

Try this scene instead:

GM: You see an Inscription in Ancient Dwarven Runes
Dwarf: Ach, I read it.
GM: You can't read Ancient Dwarven
Dwarf: But I'm a Dwarf!
GM: Yes, but Dwarves don't speak Ancient Dwarven, they speak common like everybody else for the past 400 years.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think it might be more in the spirit to describe them as "ancient dwarven runes" rather than "dwarven runes".

Try this scene instead:

GM: You see an Inscription in Ancient Dwarven Runes
Dwarf: Ach, I read it.
GM: You can't read Ancient Dwarven
Dwarf: But I'm a Dwarf!
GM: Yes, but Dwarves don't speak Ancient Dwarven, they speak common like everybody else for the past 400 years.

Meh. Your Minotaur still speaks Northerner though, doesn't he? Do you plan to change that based on Kromm's response? I think that it is unnecessarily restrictive to a certain player type (the sort that likes at least a hint of exotic culture even in the most hack'n'slash games) to outright forbid characters to learn their ethnic language.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Meh. Your Minotaur still speaks Northerner though, doesn't he? Do you plan to change that based on Kromm's response? I think that it is unnecessarily restrictive to a certain player type (the sort that likes at least a hint of exotic culture even in the most hack'n'slash games) to outright forbid characters to learn their ethnic language.

Nah, but we're not very very strictly enforcing the templates, so there's some flexibility on the issue. More importantly, he basically speaks "The language from Away", which is going to probably result in minimal or no use in game, and I knew this when I decided to have him speak Northerner instead of Common. To be honest, I kept it because the original incarnation of Mrugnak was a D&D minotaur who only spoke Giant. This one has made concessions to practicality ;)