12-10-2016, 12:51 AM | #21 |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Don't chimpanzees give warning cries if they see a predator in the area? Everyone responds to the problem by running away or driving off the predator.
Is that not included in the definition of shared intentionality?
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12-10-2016, 12:55 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Distress screams are not necessarily the product of a deliberate intend to signal others.
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12-10-2016, 02:06 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Quote:
They also pant-hoot to direct their tribe to fruit trees or travel together.
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12-10-2016, 02:27 AM | #24 |
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Inability to conceive of or care about others doesn't sound like even primitive mammal herd behavior let alone monkey or ape.
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12-10-2016, 02:35 AM | #25 |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Zebra's do this. They don't care about each other at all, but they hang out in groups since it's individually advantageous.
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12-10-2016, 07:38 AM | #26 | |
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Quote:
I keep on coming up with examples and they keep on boiling down to communication and asking someone to do something they haven't done before or that their isn't a hardwired chimp screech for. Of course chimps don't have our language, but the point is that even when given it and put under good motivation to ask others to do things, they can't. They can't ask the smallest chimp to go and get that mango from the branch only it can reach. They won't hold open a door for another so it can get to the food. Part of me wonders if dogs have broken this barrier. They at least receive messages. I think they also know to ask humans for things they want, but that's not being creative about what they want the human to do, that's faith in the human to figure something out.
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12-10-2016, 09:05 AM | #27 | ||
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Location: Meifumado
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Quote:
Quote:
But actually, whether these animals fit the OP's definition is probably beside the point. The question was how to GURPSify the trait for an alien species, whether chimps and dogs can do it or not.
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12-10-2016, 10:35 AM | #28 | |
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Quote:
All you need do is to project your goals over a long term, that is the main pre-requisite, social interaction takes cares of the rest. So maybe make a super powerfull species that does not rely on anyone to achieve its most amazing long term goals, you could sort of achieve that. But the less you need other individuals, the less you will articulate with them, and you will have a poorer language, and since thought follows language, the logic is that you would have a small IQ than would be the case if there was heavy social interaction |
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12-10-2016, 11:51 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
Quote:
For example, I've read about experiments in psychology that test people's ability to figure out puzzles in logic. Most people are unexpectedly bad at doing this, ordinarily. But if you frame the puzzle, not as an abstract set of questions, but as a way of detecting whether someone is deceiving you, the same people do significantly better. That is, we seem to have highly developed social intelligence, but our general purpose intelligence isn't as good in most people (autistic spectrum people might be an exception). So could we have a different pattern, one where toolmaking or navigation was the core ability, and social reasoning was at best a difficult addon? We know a nervous system can work like that, because some people have that pattern. Could it evolve without sociality? Could we have a species that was either fully autistic, or Asperger-like, putting together social alliances through rational calculation? I'm not sure we know.
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12-10-2016, 04:25 PM | #30 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: A species without shared intentionality
I guess that sounds like an alarm call to summon the forum autists.
Lying, in somewhat loose definitions, has been witnessed in a lot of rather unintelligent mammals. So hypothetical aliens wouldn't just be un-human-like, but also very un-earth-animal-like if unable to recognize basic social conventions like deception. Getting used and using others is much of what all social animals with brains do for survival. One theory has such one-upmanship being the force that caused the rapid hominid brain size increase over the past couple million years. Social manipulation is hard and detecting it is even harder.
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disadvantage, social disadvantage |
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