After reading "How to Be a GURPS GM" visibility issues

[GodBeastX]

These rules have not been clear to me at all, and get different wordings in different places all the time. So I'd like something concrete.

Essentially I can't understand when someone is denied their defenses completely for two reasons, 1 the attacker is in the back angle (Or hexes) and 2 from invisibility.

I am aware of the Run Around Attack rule. You are in a fight, someone runs around you in a turn, you get -2 to defense in the back.

What if they start in a side hex and just step to your back? What if you turn so that your back is to them now? Are you denied defenses? Can you make a listen check to try to get a defense? Do you at least get a Dodge - 4 like when an invisible attack is known to be coming your way?

And another issue is invisible people. When do you know an invisible attack is coming your way? Is it assumed you are just weaving and dodging because you know someone is trying to attack but not where so that the first attack might get no defense but not after? ETc etc.

These rules have always been confusing for me and I'd just like some clarity. Even in this book you have these lines:

In How to Be a GURPS GM it says:

Attacks From Behind or Side: Most fighters attacked from
behind or from a side hex suffer penalties to their active
defense (side hex), or get no defense at all (behind).

In one spot, and in another:

Attacks from the sides give -2 to defense – and if the attack from
behind is one the target is unaware of, there’s no active
defense at all!

[Ulzgoroth]

This is, as you probably know, ground where the Basic Set is unclear in exactly the same way.

Based on threads where this has come up before, I don't think an answer has been handed down.

[GodBeastX]

I was hoping the new book would be clear on it at least :)

[Crakkerjakk]

I don't have an official answer, but in my games I do -2 to defenses from side hexes for awkwardness, and -4 for from the rear if you have some reason to expect someone attacking you from behind. This includes hearing rolls to hear someone coming at you from behind, seeing them going for you in a reflective surface, etc. Not RAW, but makes sense to me.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

These rules have not been clear to me at all, and get different wordings in different places all the time. So I'd like something concrete.

Essentially I can't understand when someone is denied their defenses completely for two reasons, 1 the attacker is in the back angle (Or hexes) and 2 from invisibility.

I am aware of the Run Around Attack rule. You are in a fight, someone runs around you in a turn, you get -2 to defense in the back.

What if they start in a side hex and just step to your back?

Ehn...on second thought "in front" probably does mean "not in the back hex.

What if you turn so that your back is to them now? Are you denied defenses?

Yes.

Can you make a listen check to try to get a defense?

No. I mean the only reason your going to turn your back on an active attacker is to deal with a bigger threat right? So there will be plenty of noise from both sides.

Do you at least get a Dodge - 4 like when an invisible attack is known to be coming your way?

If you were already dodging.

And another issue is invisible people. When do you know an invisible attack is coming your way? Is it assumed you are just weaving and dodging because you know someone is trying to attack but not where so that the first attack might get no defense but not after? ETc etc.

If you don't know the invisible person is there, then you don't get a defense. In fact you're Surprised. If you do, it means you've heard them, or seen their footprints, or the movement of dust or something.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

What if they start in a side hex and just step to your back?

This is a runaround attack. The phrase "in front" in the text on B391 should be read as "not the back", not just the three front hexes.

[Dustin]

We've been reading this as follows: If an attacker has spent its entire turn in your Rear hexes (best visualized as the black hexes on B389), then you get no defenses, although a kind GM may allow a Hearing roll or similar to let you Dodge at -4.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I don't have an official answer, but in my games I do -2 to defenses from side hexes for awkwardness, and -4 for from the rear if you have some reason to expect someone attacking you from behind. This includes hearing rolls to hear someone coming at you from behind, seeing them going for you in a reflective surface, etc. Not RAW, but makes sense to me.

This is exactly how I handle things too.

I was even sure to have read it somewhere in the Basic Set but, when someone asked that question in an older thread, I never succeeded to find the reference again. So, I may have read it on this forum, or maybe in the third edition (Basic Set or Compendium 2). I absolutely don't know... At any rate, it really makes sense.

Edit
I frantically searched again through Basic Set, fourth edition. Just note that the official rules sound to say that it is either -2 or no defense at all. See the "Runaround" Attacks box page or the Defending against attacks from the Back paragraph, page 391.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

This is a runaround attack. The phrase "in front" in the text on B391 should be read as "not the back", not just the three front hexes.

Anything official to cite what it should be? Or is that a feeling? I just like to know things clearly so when players ask "Why is it this way"?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

Anything official to cite what it should be?

The Word of Kromm: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=19

(And of course the fact that if "front" meant "white hexes", then the case for starting in the side hexes would be undefined -- dare I say, a grey area in the rules. We can't afford to leave an opening for such puns.)

A longer thread on the topic:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=119533

Dustin's reading appeals to me. Considering that the attacker's turn lasts through all the other characters' turns as well, this interpretation means that if the target maneuvers such that it can see you at some point, it counts as "aware" of you. This becomes a reason to stay mobile and keep moving, whereas just standing in one place and facing one direction allows people to sneak up behind you. But if you've been in a black hex since the end of your previous turn, for all your target's movement and your own, then the target is unaware of you. This is even more restrictive than just starting your own turn in a black hex. Perhaps a bit complicated to remember, though.