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Old 04-17-2012, 12:30 AM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

I was thinking about something to do with Bards. They can play music that can cause mind control. I was wondering if Magic Resistance should work on their songs. When a Wizard casts a spell he uses magic to directly affect the mind of another person therefore if a person has Magic Resistance then it would make sense that he would be less affected by the magic than a person without it. When a Bard sings a song he probably needs magic in order for his voice or song to be able to be as pure and beautiful to be able cause mind control but maybe once the song is in the air it is no longer magical? Maybe the song is mundane but so beautiful or terrifying that it can affect the minds of others? Maybe Magic Resistance only helps against magic cast directly at a target while magic cast indirectly like through a Bard's song could bypass Magic Resistance?

This might make Bards more useful if so.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:37 AM   #2
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

I'm not a DF player but the answer to your question revolves around this: Does mana level have any effect on bardic music? If it doesn't, then magic resistance wouldn't do anything either, just as it won't stop psi or a variety of other power sources.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I'm not a DF player but the answer to your question revolves around this: Does mana level have any effect on bardic music? If it doesn't, then magic resistance wouldn't do anything either, just as it won't stop psi or a variety of other power sources.
The Bard needs mana to make music.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

As it says under the skill description for Enthrallment: "Depending on the setting, these skills might be magical, psionic, or a cinematic form of hypnotism." So really, it's up to the GM. In DF, in which Bards can work "arcane" spells through song, it makes sense to treat Enthrallment as just another set of "spells", disabled by No Mana and resisted by Magic Resistance. Considering how easy they are to acquire compared to Magical mind control (requiring Charisma 1 rather than the more expensive Magery) it might be unbalancing if they were also immune to the common countermeasures against magic.

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
The Bard needs mana to make music.
In that case it makes sense for Magic Resistance to work against it.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

From Dungeon Fantasy 1, page 21:

Bard-Song abilities are also subject to the constraints on wizardly magic: they need mana to work, Dispel Magic can end their ongoing effects, and modifiers such as the -5 for low mana and penalties for Magic Resistance apply to rolls to use them.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
From Dungeon Fantasy 1, page 21:

Bard-Song abilities are also subject to the constraints on wizardly magic: they need mana to work, Dispel Magic can end their ongoing effects, and modifiers such as the -5 for low mana and penalties for Magic Resistance apply to rolls to use them.
But the point is that Bards use magic indirectly like fore example a Wizard casting Fireball. The Wizard needs mana to cast the spell but once he chucks at an opponent then the opponent does not get to use his Magic Resistance to resist the Fireball attack. But if a Wizard tries to heat up an opponent then that means that there is an actual spell cast upon an opponent and Magic Resistance would work.

So the same logic could apply to a Bard. The Bard needs mana in order to create a song that is so beautiful that it affects the minds of others but once created it is the *song itself* that controls the minds of others not the mana or spell.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
But the point is that Bards use magic indirectly like fore example a Wizard casting Fireball. The Wizard needs mana to cast the spell but once he chucks at an opponent then the opponent does not get to use his Magic Resistance to resist the Fireball attack. But if a Wizard tries to heat up an opponent then that means that there is an actual spell cast upon an opponent and Magic Resistance would work.

So the same logic could apply to a Bard. The Bard needs mana in order to create a song that is so beautiful that it affects the minds of others but once created it is the *song itself* that controls the minds of others not the mana or spell.
You are free to rule it this way. Or free to rule in the opposite way. There isn't a DF SWAT team that'll break down your door and demand one or the other. All that matters is that whatever rule you use makes sense to you and is applied consistently.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

In DF, songs don't control minds – magic does. Music is merely the vehicle for the magic . . . In game terms, bardic magic is simply spellcasting using Magery with a variation on the standard Musical or Song limitation. The high-powered songs in DF 11 are also magical and explicitly allow Magic Resistance, because they're advantage versions of the same general idea. And since these capabilities are built with major limitations, making them cheaper, they shouldn't be advantageous in the sense of ignoring Magic Resistance.

You pretty much need the above interpretation to avoid weirdness such as different or absent aesthetic sense being a defense against bardic magic. I'm not saying that a more nuanced reading has no place in fantasy – far from it! I'm merely saying that this has no place in fast-playing dungeon fantasy which has little respect for the intricacies of culture, language, and society needed to make the "It's the song's beauty, not the magic!" analysis work.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
But the point is that Bards use magic indirectly like fore example a Wizard casting Fireball. The Wizard needs mana to cast the spell but once he chucks at an opponent then the opponent does not get to use his Magic Resistance to resist the Fireball attack. But if a Wizard tries to heat up an opponent then that means that there is an actual spell cast upon an opponent and Magic Resistance would work.
That's because Fireball does damage, and isn't resistible. Magic Resistance explicitly does not protect against direct damage, only resistible effects.

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So the same logic could apply to a Bard. The Bard needs mana in order to create a song that is so beautiful that it affects the minds of others but once created it is the *song itself* that controls the minds of others not the mana or spell.
Any resistible Abilities that a Bard has absolutely need to be affected by countermeasures that affect magic as that's part of the Power Modifer for Bard-Song. For Enthrallment, since DF explicitly treats Enthrallment as magical and it is resistible Magical Resistance clearly also should apply.

It is clear to me that the intent of the DF rules is that all countermeasures to magic apply to all Bardic Abilities, Enthrallment Skills, and Musical Influence.

At any rate Enthrallment skills are already pretty good for the cost so MR isn't going to nerf them overmuch.

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Originally Posted by thulben View Post
You are free to rule it this way. Or free to rule in the opposite way. There isn't a DF SWAT team that'll break down your door and demand one or the other. All that matters is that whatever rule you use makes sense to you and is applied consistently.
From previous experience in threads of this nature I think the OP wants to understand what the rules explicitly and implicitly mean and/or the designers intent. Appeals to GM freedom don't seem to be especially helpful.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 04-17-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: [DF] Should people who hear Bard music be able to use their Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post

That's because Fireball does damage, and isn't resistible. Magic Resistance explicitly does not protect against direct damage, only resistible effects.
This, too, is true. One of Magic Resistance or Damage Resistance should always apply to offensive spells. Magic affected by neither is altogether too powerful, unless it's purely residual, allowing potential victims to see and avoid it with ease (e.g., magically created grease on the floor).

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I don't think that works for b-dog. He seems to need either referenced textual answers or word of god.
Let's avoid getting personal, please.
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