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Old 05-04-2017, 04:01 AM   #91
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
I suspect part of the point of Bill's writeup was to show what you could do primarily with the Trained Powers, which would be why he didn't spring for Trained By A Master, Weapon Master, or an overall Unusual Background... and therefore required the Special Exercises Perks for stuff exceeding what's normally available to the non-cinematic.

As for knives vs saber (or another fencing sword, possibly), I tend to agree that focusing on the sword skills more would result in a better visual for the character, even if it made it more difficult for her to transform into her heroic identity.
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That's basically it. Note that this power modifier is part of a world definition; it represents abilities people can have who are native to the surface timeline, rather than having come in from a subducted timeline and undergone radical metamorphosis under chronotectonic forces. Traits like Trained by a Master would be totally appropriate for a character with the Ideal power modifier, among others; they get to exceed normal human limits by a bigger margin.
I don't know. It just seems weird to me in a setting where you can buy actual super powers that those with a kind of super power have to pay the same thing that those without super powers would have to pay.

It's like saying to the guy who wants to make Batman "Sure, you can make Batman, but you have to pay more for your mostly normal, non-flashy powers while Flash gets to buy his with a discount and doesn't have to pay more."


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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
she's hunting Red Jack, whose targets are streetwalkers and who doesn't have made combat skills; and while a London pimp can probably beat up an unruly client, or knock him over the head with a blackjack, he's likely to back off from a knife fight—it's not profitable. A significant part of what she uses the knife for is Intimidation!

Note also that she does have the pistol for seriously dangerous foes. And with Danger Sense, she can almost surely have it out and ready before a foe closes with her.

If she were going up against a supervillain, she could certainly take along her saber.

But really, her most important power is her high Dodge: boosted from 9 to 12 by Basic Speed, from 12 to 13 by Combat Reflexes, and arguably to 14 by Daredevil if she's taking risks. Being able to slip around nine out of ten blows changes the odds quite a lot.
So your main weapon is there ot just intimidate others? That doesn't follow to me. What if she gets in a real fight? She's got a weapon skill (Saber) and she's not using it? It would make even more sense in this case for her to have put those points in Knife vs. Saber because she's using Knife more.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:14 AM   #92
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I don't know. It just seems weird to me in a setting where you can buy actual super powers that those with a kind of super power have to pay the same thing that those without super powers would have to pay.

It's like saying to the guy who wants to make Batman "Sure, you can make Batman, but you have to pay more for your mostly normal, non-flashy powers while Flash gets to buy his with a discount and doesn't have to pay more."
Well, you're not paying any more than if you simply took the stats and advantages straight outside of a power, and you're able to take a Power Talent that improves your use of all of them together. As for the Super (or more likely Psi or Weird in Götterdämmerung) Power Modifier that the out and out super gets, it represents actual drawbacks like foes with anti-powers being able to disrupt your abilities and such, it's not free points 'for being a super'.

As for how to balance out the access to truly out there abilities beyond the reach of Trained, that's usually done not by increasing the cost of individual abilities, but by assessing a differential Unusual Background cost on the character as a whole, although YMMV.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:30 AM   #93
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Well, you're not paying any more than if you simply took the stats and advantages straight outside of a power, and you're able to take a Power Talent that improves your use of all of them together. As for the Super (or more likely Psi or Weird in Götterdämmerung) Power Modifier that the out and out super gets, it represents actual drawbacks like foes with anti-powers being able to disrupt your abilities and such, it's not free points 'for being a super'.
Yes. It does. But if you look at it from a player perspective - as a GM should - there is no real point to playing Batman. You're better off playing the Flash or Batman built with super powers and wildcard skills (the latter of which he'd arguably have anyways). It also can create a bit of a perversity: if the game has a bunch of powered folks then someone with Trained keeps their powers when others are negated. If the GM doesn't allow proper downtime . . . then Trained powers are lost. This would probably result in your having to have all or mostly of the same type and that doesn't play well with some comic assumptions.



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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
As for how to balance out the access to truly out there abilities beyond the reach of Trained, that's usually done not by increasing the cost of individual abilities, but by assessing a differential Unusual Background cost on the character as a whole, although YMMV.
That's the thing - if any player character can have super powers then a UB becomes a campaign feature. If the GM assesses a UB for powers then the GM will need to set up a tier system or dictate which is ok to take as non-powers or Trained abilities.

Again, the concept is sound - but there's a lot of implications to using the model that must be worked out ahead of time.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:27 AM   #94
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Yes. It does. But if you look at it from a player perspective - as a GM should - there is no real point to playing Batman. You're better off playing the Flash or Batman built with super powers and wildcard skills (the latter of which he'd arguably have anyways).
In my experience, the point of playing Batman is usually so that you want to play Batman. Besides, even if there are explicit or implicit limits as to what you can take as Trained powers vis a vis regular Super powers, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trained characters will be less effective overall... it depends on the specific abilities, and also as to what else they can have in terms of advantages (especially things like Luck, even if not in a power structure), skills (especially cinematic and Wildcard skills), and gear (although Gadgets might well be their own Source, if this goes beyond what can be bought as so much of Batman's stuff probably does).

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It also can create a bit of a perversity: if the game has a bunch of powered folks then someone with Trained keeps their powers when others are negated. If the GM doesn't allow proper downtime . . . then Trained powers are lost. This would probably result in your having to have all or mostly of the same type and that doesn't play well with some comic assumptions.
The differential effects of power nullifiers on 'super normals' vs actual superhumans is actually one of the reasons a super team wants a Batman or a Maidman on the roster, to my mind. As to not having proper downtime, if the cost of the power modifier is balanced, I would expect this to be much less common than encountering power drainers in any campaign, although now that you mention it, I wonder how things like being in a coma or suspended animation for weeks, as opposed to just being busy or lazy and not doing your practice, should be assessed in play.

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That's the thing - if any player character can have super powers then a UB becomes a campaign feature. If the GM assesses a UB for powers then the GM will need to set up a tier system or dictate which is ok to take as non-powers or Trained abilities.

Again, the concept is sound - but there's a lot of implications to using the model that must be worked out ahead of time.
Absolutely, the GM needs to make these decisions before the start of the campaign in order for things to be balanced. Depending on the campaign point total and how many or few countermeasures exist in the setting, UB values greater than 50 may even be needed in some cases, or none may be needed at all.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:44 AM   #95
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
In my experience, the point of playing Batman is usually so that you want to play Batman. Besides, even if there are explicit or implicit limits as to what you can take as Trained powers vis a vis regular Super powers, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trained characters will be less effective overall... it depends on the specific abilities, and also as to what else they can have in terms of advantages (especially things like Luck, even if not in a power structure), skills (especially cinematic and Wildcard skills), and gear (although Gadgets might well be their own Source, if this goes beyond what can be bought as so much of Batman's stuff probably does).
Except that's kind of what's going to happen. They are going to be less effective. In high-point total games - which I've run several and just wrapped up a supers game - every point counts. Bogging people down with UBs clutters a sheet and forces a tax to be normal vs. powered. That's not something you want to encourage.

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
The differential effects of power nullifiers on 'super normals' vs actual superhumans is actually one of the reasons a super team wants a Batman or a Maidman on the roster, to my mind. As to not having proper downtime, if the cost of the power modifier is balanced, I would expect this to be much less common than encountering power drainers in any campaign, although now that you mention it, I wonder how things like being in a coma or suspended animation for weeks, as opposed to just being busy or lazy and not doing your practice, should be assessed in play.
It doesn't seem all that balanced to me. THat's what I've spent a good chunk of this thread talking about it. I think I'm about done though.


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Absolutely, the GM needs to make these decisions before the start of the campaign in order for things to be balanced. Depending on the campaign point total and how many or few countermeasures exist in the setting, UB values greater than 50 may even be needed in some cases, or none may be needed at all.
Agreed.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:52 AM   #96
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
So your main weapon is there ot just intimidate others? That doesn't follow to me. What if she gets in a real fight? She's got a weapon skill (Saber) and she's not using it? It would make even more sense in this case for her to have put those points in Knife vs. Saber because she's using Knife more.
No, that's not what I said.

* "A weapon is a device for making your enemy change his mind." She may use *any* of her weapons for Intimidation: knife, pistol, or saber. She would rather get a foe to back down without fighting, if she can, both because any fight has some element of risk and because leaving a trail of dead bodies behind her, in 1890s London, would attract the attention of the police and the newspapers.

* The threat's effective, though, because she actually is skilled in using weapons. It's not *specious* intimidation.

* The points in Saber Art, and to some degree those in Saber, are not there purely to enable Intimidation. They're there as *characterization*. She developed her inhuman speed and her striking strength and her danger sense while studying fencing. The points are spent on her backstory.

* She can, in fact, use the saber perfectly well in combat, and in particular the extra defense points when retreating augment her parry and make her Dodge all but unbeatable. (Saber Parry-12 and Dodge-16!) But pragmatically, carrying around a saber is a bit conspicuous; she finds it useful to have concealable weapons. If she does use the saber, the added combat advantages you refer to largely compensate for the 1-point difference in effective skill that comes from her more frequent use of the knife.

* It might make better sense, though, for her to replace Knife with Main-Gauche. It lets her benefit from retreating parries, and it's a more natural follow-on from her Saber training—and Martial Arts does provide the option of using a knife in your dominant hand with Main-Gauche skill.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:53 AM   #97
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Except that's kind of what's going to happen. They are going to be less effective. In high-point total games - which I've run several and just wrapped up a supers game - every point counts. Bogging people down with UBs clutters a sheet and forces a tax to be normal vs. powered. That's not something you want to encourage.
I'm not sure what you're saying here... has anybody on this thread suggested charging a UB to be 'normal' or even to have Trained powers, and NOT also charging at least the same UB, and likely a much higher one, to those characters with actual superpowers? I sure haven't. I've explicitly stated that I would go the other way, and charge a higher UB for superpowers vs super normal type abilities.


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It doesn't seem all that balanced to me. THat's what I've spent a good chunk of this thread talking about it. I think I'm about done though.
Well, if you don't think the costs for the elements of the Trained power modifier are fair, if you find needing to train in your downtime as limiting as being susceptible to power drainers, etc., change the values to what you think they should be. I'm not sure that I've seen you arguing that specific point, but I can see you having an argument there.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:17 AM   #98
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Besides, even if there are explicit or implicit limits as to what you can take as Trained powers vis a vis regular Super powers, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trained characters will be less effective overall... it depends on the specific abilities, and also as to what else they can have in terms of advantages (especially things like Luck, even if not in a power structure), skills (especially cinematic and Wildcard skills), and gear (although Gadgets might well be their own Source, if this goes beyond what can be bought as so much of Batman's stuff probably does).
There are two different ways to do this. One is to say that any power modifier can be used with any power and any abilities; in effect, all characters have "super powers," even if one gets them from divine favor and another from brain abnormalities and another from superscience gadgets. The other is to say that, for example, psionics grants you things like telepathy and psychokinesis, and being a mutant gives you bodily abnormalities, and superscience gives you powered armor and energy beams—each power modifier goes with certain powers and abilities and not others. The comics, over the years, have tended to expand each power source to include more and more possible powers, until they all assimilate to a generic Super, -10%. But Götterdämmerung is designed to work differently.

Now, there is the overall idea that human reality shards can *have* origins and power sources and power modifiers; but that's more at a meta-level. "Being a reality shard" isn't a power source that can be cut off; it's part of a character's history that led up to their having one or another power source.

So one aspect of Trained is that it gives you access to a more restricted list of abilities. But nearly all the power modifiers have some such restrictions: Biological gives you things that can be accounted for by comparison with animal physiology, Invented gives you devices that fit the technological range from steampunk to Weird War II, Savant gives you mental hyperfocus, and so on. If you're the superheroic (or supervillainous) version of Tesla, you make have particle accelerator weapons and the like, but you can't get +3 to Basic Speed!

Quote:
The differential effects of power nullifiers on 'super normals' vs actual superhumans is actually one of the reasons a super team wants a Batman or a Maidman on the roster, to my mind. As to not having proper downtime, if the cost of the power modifier is balanced, I would expect this to be much less common than encountering power drainers in any campaign, although now that you mention it, I wonder how things like being in a coma or suspended animation for weeks, as opposed to just being busy or lazy and not doing your practice, should be assessed in play.
Note that not all of the modifiers in GURPS Powers make you a target for power drainers. There are no mundane or technological countermeasures or anti-powers for Chi, or Divine, or Spirit. So Trained isn't distinctive as far as that goes.

How much of a burden are its restrictions? By the strict letter of the rules, if the Scarlet Woman gets injured and spends two weeks in hospital, unable to exercise, you could say that she needs six weeks of training to get back in shape, one week for each ability. But perhaps she needs one week for each power, or two weeks. Well, that's not very different from what Kimball Kinnison goes through after the Wheelmen shoot him up, or after he visits Jarnevon and has to have his arms and legs regrown, and Kimball Kinnison is more super than the Scarlet Woman is, even without his Lens. So I don't think "you were in a hospital bed for a week and now you have to get back in training" is outrageous.

The big deal with Trained, it seems to me, is that it lets you apply Power Talent bonuses and, in some cases, make Power Blocks. That's a significant enhancer to what you can do.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:31 AM   #99
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
That's the thing - if any player character can have super powers then a UB becomes a campaign feature. If the GM assesses a UB for powers then the GM will need to set up a tier system or dictate which is ok to take as non-powers or Trained abilities.
Well, you know, I've written up a list of Trained powers and abilities: five powers (Coordination, Intellect, Physique, Senses, Speed), 24 abilities, and 10 perks. It's 3200 words long, which I think is comparable to the entire article. So on one hand it wasn't suitable for inclusion in the article, and on the other it's perfectly possible to work out such a list. I'm sure you could do it yourself, just as I can, even if we wouldn't have exactly the same lists.

If I were running a Götterdämmerung campaign (which I'd kind of like to do!), I probably wouldn't do UBs for it.

How powerful could a Trained character get? Adding up everything, I get 282 points in maxing out all abilities; 100 points in maxing out all Talents; and 10 points in perks. That's 392 points! When you also buy up base stats, and then buy social advantages and skills, you could easily get past 1000 points. At that point, I think qualitative issues become more important than point balance.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:45 AM   #100
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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So one aspect of Trained is that it gives you access to a more restricted list of abilities. But nearly all the power modifiers have some such restrictions: Biological gives you things that can be accounted for by comparison with animal physiology, Invented gives you devices that fit the technological range from steampunk to Weird War II, Savant gives you mental hyperfocus, and so on. If you're the superheroic (or supervillainous) version of Tesla, you make have particle accelerator weapons and the like, but you can't get +3 to Basic Speed!
Given that fictional versions of Tesla have had inventions veering into the realm of superscience, e.g., duplication/teleportation in Priest's The Prestige, and that the relevant Edisonade type of literature presumably includes things like Wells' The New Accelerator, I'd probably even let a Super-Tesla purchase things like a Speed Power with Altered Time Rate, Enhanced Time Sense, etc. I'd just require it to be limited using Gadget or perhaps Trigger or Periodic Recharge, so that it requires him to be using a time accelerator gizmo or to periodically supercharge himself using a telluric field or something.
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