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Old 06-10-2019, 01:47 PM   #11
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The main ones I know are:
ITl page 138: "A single illusion cannot split in two – this is why an illusory fighter cannot use a thrown or missile weapon."
ITL page 139: "An image/illusion [...] can make only physical attacks (and cannot use a thrown or missile weapon – that would require the image/illusion to divide in two)."

I feel like there have been other answers supporting this in original TFT, but that may mean Interplay Q&A somewhere (I looked in the Codex Q&A but didn't see it there).
My view is that a 1-hex illusion can do anything it wants within a hex, so dropping a weapon, which falls in the same hex, does not violate the spell. The fire from a thrown or missile weapon which extends beyond the hex of origin would violate the parameters of the spell and so is disallowed.

Due to this, I wouldn't consider a dropped or broken weapon to violate the illusion. The only exception to this would be if the illusion was forced backwards away from its dropped weapon. That would then destroy the illusion to my mind.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:32 PM   #12
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
My view is that a 1-hex illusion can do anything it wants within a hex, so dropping a weapon, which falls in the same hex, does not violate the spell. The fire from a thrown or missile weapon which extends beyond the hex of origin would violate the parameters of the spell and so is disallowed.

Due to this, I wouldn't consider a dropped or broken weapon to violate the illusion. The only exception to this would be if the illusion was forced backwards away from its dropped weapon. That would then destroy the illusion to my mind.
Why would the illusion be destroyed? Why not just adjust the illusion in the same way that you pass right through an illusory bridge and the victim tries to rationalize it somehow even though it is just as impossible as a dropped weapon? It does make it obvious or at least likely that it is an illusion when the weapon (or the warrior) disappears, but it could be just the weapon that was an illusion, so you can't be sure. So you still have to disbelieve it to make it go away.

I see the illusion as one piece no matter what. And it can't be split in two, it will adjust. But it won't disappear on its own, I see no reason for that. If you hit it good with a weapon, blood should splatter, but it won't. The blood won't stick to your sword either which it should. An illusion on fire will not give off smoke and a slime illusion won't leave a trail of muck. All perfectly good reason to try a disbelieve, but it shouldn't be automatic and it shouldn't go poof by it self. At least that is my take on it. The more clues you find or good reasons for a disbelieve, the better bonus you would get in my games.

But overall I like the idea of anything goes within its area better than RAW that says it can't divide. It takes care of all the small stuff like an illusion screaming and you can see the spittle drip off his lips. :-D The spittle will disappear from the ground when the guy moves away, but that is easy to miss. And a wet zombie that rises from the water will drip water on the ground. A fire elemental can give of smoke and not all the flames and embers must stick together, but they can't fly very far.

But as the OP, let's take this discussion to its own thread. This is about a Death Test run. :-)
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:36 PM   #13
Senturian
 
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Location: Mount Bethel, Pennsylvania
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

I'm slowly reading the new ITL for the past few days now. I'm up to the Creatures that occupy Cidri. There are several that can only be harmed by magic weapons which this thread made me think about.
I'm sure what I'm about to ask has been discussed numerous times.
Is an Illusionary weapon considered a magic one?
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:30 PM   #14
JohnPaulB
 
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Location: Portland, Maine
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The main ones I know are:
ITl page 138: "A single illusion cannot split in two this is why an illusory fighter cannot use a thrown or missile weapon."
ITL page 139: "An image/illusion [...] can make only physical attacks (and cannot use a thrown or missile weapon that would require the image/illusion to divide in two)."
Nils,

I agree with Skarg that you can't split the Image/Illusion. The idea of it disappearing perhaps comes from it disincorporating itself, like you suggested.

However, in the situation where the Illusion is forced to 'drop' its weapon, perhaps you could have the illusion trip instead, with the weapon seeming to drop as the illusion is falling, but never actually leaves the hand.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:14 PM   #15
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

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Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
Nils,

I agree with Skarg that you can't split the Image/Illusion. The idea of it disappearing perhaps comes from it disincorporating itself, like you suggested.

However, in the situation where the Illusion is forced to 'drop' its weapon, perhaps you could have the illusion trip instead, with the weapon seeming to drop as the illusion is falling, but never actually leaves the hand.
According to RAW, it can't split into two. That is clear. But it also says it can't split, so there is no disappear when it is forced to split because it can't do it to begin with. There are many ways to play it out, but illusions and images are a big topic. Bigger than this thread about a Death Test run. Maybe start a new thread and we can move the discussion over there?

I will add another couple of rooms of the run tomorrow, I still have the notes and pictures. :-)
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:22 PM   #16
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
According to RAW, it can't split into two. That is clear. But it also says it can't split, so there is no disappear when it is forced to split because it can't do it to begin with. There are many ways to play it out, but illusions and images are a big topic. Bigger than this thread about a Death Test run. Maybe start a new thread and we can move the discussion over there?

I will add another couple of rooms of the run tomorrow, I still have the notes and pictures. :-)
Good point. Illusions are a complex issue and deserve their own thread for sure.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:40 PM   #17
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Another nice fight write-up:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1410...5847839412698/
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:44 PM   #18
Scintillant
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Thank you for posting this example! I'm new to TFT and I've been wishing ITL included detailed combat examples (like this!) to help me understand the system better. I have some questions though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Twirl(X) hits one with her first attack (DX 12+4(prone)-3(fear), then her second attack misses twice (DX 8 +4-3), but the third try is a success and spider number 6 on Longlegs dies...
Tilly(N) hesitates but decides to drop her crossbow and gives the icky crawlers a one-two fist attack. With a DX of 11+4(prone)-4(2 attacks)-3(fear). She mirrors her sister's result Hit, miss, hit. And kills two more.
How did they each do 3 attacks? I can't find anything about extra attacks for fighting barehanded, nor anything at all that allows 3 attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Longlegs(R) goes first and quadruple miss; DX 13+4-4-3. At least he didn't hurt himself.
Am I reading this right? He attacked 4 times? How?
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Old 06-16-2019, 05:19 AM   #19
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

There are several ways to get extra attacks in TFT.

Two weapon fighting, with or without the talent, without the talent you need special weapons (daggers, main-gauche, cesti, spiked shield, net and trident, etc) or fists. The rules are a little bit unclear on this, or rather contradictory. I go with the -4DX for both attacks when you don't have the talent. And with the talent -0/-4. Twirl uses nunchuks which are a special weapon that can be used one in each hand. The "fire" thing doesn't affect it in any way combat wise (it just gave her a torch light effect at the cost of a mundane "dance" talent for flavor). :-)

The others use fist attacks, and with the HTH bonus of +4 or hitting someone lying down in HTH while you stand up yourself, you could do a -0/-0 attack with your fists. The Cesti works in a similar way. Not 100% sure if double punching with fists are RAW, but that is how we play it.

The multiple attacks come from hitting multiple enemies, and potentially friends in a large free for all HTH. You get a chance to hit every enemy, but as soon as you hit someone you stop. Unless you have two attacks to begin with, then you start over for the next attack. If you run out of enemies in a pile of people (missing them all), you have to strike to miss your friends. This is what happened in the spider fight. Lots of spiders in HTH. But the party was lucky and hit the spiders first, and didn't have to strike to miss. That happened in a later fight where Ogre got a boomerang in the back of his head. Strike to miss your friends are dangerous because there is an increased chance of crits and auto hits.

The third way to get more than one attack is the Sweeping blow, where you hit all three front hexes at a -4adjDX if you have a large bladed weapon.

I hope that cleared things up just a bit. :-)
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Old 06-16-2019, 09:38 AM   #20
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Death Test Revisited after 40 years

Added two more rooms. "The Yellow Room" and "The Copper Room". Third part of the Death test run.

There will be two more parts I think.
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