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Old 05-20-2019, 01:47 PM   #1
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Default Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

Have you ever been looking through old _CW_ products, and seen a vehicle design where, even tho' you haven't looked at the design rules in *years*, you can see the design is illegal just by looking at it?

I was thinking about this after looking over "Grand Theft Autoduel" in _ADQ 3/1_: One of the cycles at the enemy Base is a Medium Cycle with a Light Sidecar; the problem crops up with the weapon mounts: It has two linked 10-shot MGs in the sidecar, which only has 185 lbs. load left after chassis and a single Std. cycle tire are accounted for (the minimum required for it to be usable). I think the writer was a little confused concerning the fungibility of mass on a cycle/sidecar combo; the weight and spaces count is correct, just in the wrong place.
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

The Nightstrike scenario in ADQ 1.2 has some anomalies.
Cycle 5 has a pair of side cars. Not hard to see the issue with that one, both in game and in reality. To make it worse weapons in one sidecar are linked to weapons in the other.
Cycle 6 has a left mounted spikedropper on the bike.

Last edited by swordtart; 05-20-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

A very early design I recall was a Van with a Turreted ATG ...
Presented on one gamesheet of bundle that came with pocketbox CW , Truck Stop , Sunday Drivers & possibly ORGE bundle at games shops in London late 1983 .
Another I think from same pack was 'The Ram Tram' Bus that had 40' Bus stats somehow placed on a 30' Bus body ! Max weight was 'correct' at just under 19,200lbs , but when you added up all weight of Armour it would've come in at something like 22,500lbs . Converting it back to a 40' made it workable .

The least said about the Coupe de Kill in ADQ 9/1 & all those designs with ORFP Platicore Tires (page 28 ADQ 8/3 & elsewhere) the better ...
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

The Vehicle Guide 3 - too soon?

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Old 05-21-2019, 01:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

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Originally Posted by Racer View Post
A very early design I recall was a Van with a Turreted ATG ...
Actually, that *is* a legal design -- Vans are permitted 3-sp. Turrets. (The real problem is the Van's limited max. load; a turreted "base" ATG is going to suck up something like 1/6 the available load.)

The "Ram Tram" sounds more like a typo than anything else; someone typed "3" when "4" was intended. (BTDT -- I hate keyboards. :) ) More on this below.

Personally: I never understood why P-cores couldn't be made OR (which would be mostly a change of the rubber treads part) or FP (if the plastic core is armor-quality...). They would be *horrifyingly* expensive, in both cost and mass, but doable.

(I ain't touchin' that last one. ;) )
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

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Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
Actually, that *is* a legal design -- Vans are permitted 3-sp. Turrets. (The real problem is the Van's limited max. load; a turreted "base" ATG is going to suck up something like 1/6 the available load.)
Except that an ATG cannot be mounted on the side of a non oversized vehicle.

Most people (in my experience) interpret that to mean it cannot fire to the side regardless on how it is mounted thus the turret would be limited to firing forward or rear.

Also if you allow an ATG turret for vans then you are implicitly allowing ATG sponsons for vans and you run into a world of hassle.

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Where is it written than Plasticores cannot be FP? P72 says they cannot be radial or OR.

As for OR Plasticores, I agree with 43. They are expensive enough that it isn't a balance issue and it's one less exception to a rule to try to remember. Whether they are worth it is an entirely different question.

I personally don't see an issue with having radial ones. Solids can be radials which seems a contradiction in terms and apparently Plasticores can still be Racing Slicks. The DP you loose for radials would have to come from the 4 rubber ones though and it would be a helluva lot of money* for a tire that can only loose 3DP before it looses both the bonus HC and the one it looses anyway for running on the core.

* Since a Plasticore that had lost 4 DP would be worth only 30% of its undamaged value (extrapolating from the salvage rules) I might be inclined to allow the modification to price for RS (and Radial/OR) to be applied against 30% of the total cost of a Plasticore. It is still hideously expensive, but it makes it a slightly credible option.

Weight is a different matter so I'd just hand wave it off and use the whole tyre weight as the baseline.

Under the logic above, I would consider allowing steel-belted plasticores too. I doubt that anyone would bother with even that reduced level of expense for 1 DP (assuming that we are using the 1/3rd (rather than the published 1/4) extra DPs rule). Since you are applying the whole weight, though you could probably add extra DPs to both elements separately and apply the full cost.

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Old 05-22-2019, 03:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

One might argue an ATG can't be turret-mounted; for my part, I'd allow it, but it can't be *fired* out the L or R arcs. This limits its utility (it would make a pretty horrifying AA platform); file it under "possible, but not practical".
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Vehicle Designs: "This Isn't Right -- This Isn't Even Wrong..."

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Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
One might argue an ATG can't be turret-mounted; for my part, I'd allow it, but it can't be *fired* out the L or R arcs. This limits its utility (it would make a pretty horrifying AA platform); file it under "possible, but not practical".
Hmm interesting point. If we assume that firing front or rear is OK because it is is co-axial to the movement vector and even when stationary it is easier to flip a car sideways than end over end due to the wheel base seperation, then we could argue that firing upwards is the best of all as it would if anything stick the vehicle to the ground (a hardcore spoiler) and is on the third axis.

On the other hand you could argue that it will crunch the suspension horrendously.

Is a top arc equivalent to a side arc? If you were using it for targeting mods. I would say so.

A whole other can of worms ;)
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