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Old 06-07-2018, 02:18 PM   #1
martinl
 
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Default Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

Right now we discount spell costs by 1 FP at skill 15, 2 at skill 20, etc. What would happen if we stole a trick from weapon master and required skill at IQ+Magery-1 (AND skill 15) for the first FP discount, skill at IQ+Magery (and skill 20) for the second, and so on?

I think this would make the oodles of spells at 1 pt types spend a little more on their favorite spells, and nerf the high end mages with IQ+Magery-2 >19 a little, both of which I think are laudable. The nerf on IQ+Magery-2=15 GURPS standard mage is no so terrible I think.

Wot thinkest all y'all?
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:27 PM   #2
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

I would delete the skill level requirements totally:
IQ+Magery-3: ritual as skill 9-, no cost reduction
IQ+Magery-2: ritual as skill 10-14, no cost reduction
IQ+Magery-1: ritual as skill 15-19, no cost reduction
IQ+Magery+0: ritual as skill 15-19, 1 point cost reduction, can use ceremonial magic.
IQ+Magery+1 points: ritual as skill 20-24, 1 point cost reduction
IQ+Magery+2: ritual as skill 20-24, 2 points cost reduction
and so on, alternating ritual reduction and cost reduction. If this seems too fast, the rate past (IQ+Magery+0) can be adjusted, but I don't actually think it's a balance problem even like this.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:49 PM   #3
Dolarre
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

I do this in my games, for exactly the reasons you mention.

In my games if base skill with a spell is known at IQ + Magery + 1, reduce the cost to cast the spell by 1. If known at +3, reduce cost by 2. Cost continues to decrease by 1 per full three skill levels beyond (That is at +6, +9, +12, etc.).

I adjust casting time if a spell is known at IQ + Magery +2. The time to
cast is halved, rounded up to the nearest whole number. Halve again if the spell is known at IQ + Magery +4. For every three levels of skill beyond (That is at +7, +10, +13, etc.) halve casting time again.

In addition, I allow Symbol Drawing to potentially further reduce cost. Before casting, the magician spends 10 seconds drawing the appropriate symbols to a spell (which must be declared); on a success, he or she may reduce the energy cost to cast that spell by one. So long as the symbols remain undisturbed and visible to the caster, the cost to maintain that spell is also reduced by one. If the margin of success is 5 or greater, the cost reductions are increased to 2. Each increase of margin of success by an additional 5 results in an additional point of energy reduction: 3 energy at 10, 4 at 15, etc. Critical Success halves the energy required to cast if that provides more of a discount than margin of success. Failure adds one to the energy cost to cast (and to the cost to maintain, but the caster will almost always wipe the flawed symbols away before maintenance is required. Critical failure prevents the caster from casting the intended spell for 1d hours. Extra time and haste apply to the Symbol Drawing roll, which is always the lower of his Symbol Drawing skill and the caster’s skill in the spell to be cast.

It works very well.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:44 PM   #4
evileeyore
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

I see no reason to include Magery in the calculation at all. Just treat it as a Talent, it adds at the end of skill calculations (and of course is needed for prereqs).

Thus (stealing Anthony's chart):
IQ-3: ritual as skill 9-, no FP reduction
IQ-2: ritual as skill 10-14, no FP reduction
IQ-1: ritual as skill 15-19, no FP reduction
IQ+0: ritual as skill 15-19, 1 FP reduction, can use ceremonial magic
IQ+1: ritual as skill 20-24, 1 FP reduction
IQ+2: ritual as skill 20-24, 2 FP reduction
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:18 PM   #5
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

I am of the opinion that higher levels of Magery should not give skill bonuses but, instead, should reduce the cost of spell. How about having each level of Magery reduce the energy cost of a spell by one? Mages would reduce the energy cost and casting time as suggested by the previous posts.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:49 AM   #6
ericthered
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I am of the opinion that higher levels of Magery should not give skill bonuses but, instead, should reduce the cost of spell. How about having each level of Magery reduce the energy cost of a spell by one? Mages would reduce the energy cost and casting time as suggested by the previous posts.

That's an awesome advantage, but you still need a magic talent. I'd use an energy reducing advantage (perhaps at 20/level or 15/level) alongside a talent that increases spell skill.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That's an awesome advantage, but you still need a magic talent. I'd use an energy reducing advantage (perhaps at 20/level or 15/level) alongside a talent that increases spell skill.
Why do you need a magical talent? You could treat magical spells like combat skills, which do not normally benefit from talents, and just have Magery representing an individuals ability to efficiently channel mana. Any spell whose energy cost would not be reduced by high skill would likewise not be reduced by Magery 1+. Of course, you would probably want to have characters learning ritual magic rather than standard magic, as it would allow them to develop higher levels of spells without having dozens of secondary spells at level 12.

I would suggest having the benefits from ritual magic coming from the points invested in specific Colleges rather than from the points invested in specific rituals. The effective skill for determining ritual effects would be (College Skill-IQ) plus 15 (meaning that an IQ 14 mage with College of Healing 20 would have an effective skill of 21 for the purposes of determining ritual effects) before taking into account the effects of mana levels. While the effective skill for casting would depend heavily on the IQ of the mage, the effective skill for determining ritual effects would be independent of IQ.

Under that scheme, the typical mage would likely invest heavily in Thaumatology and specialize in a single College. For example, an IQ 14 female mage with Magery 3 could spend 32 points on Thaumatology to gain Thaumatology-20 and 24 points to gain College of Healing-20. She would therefore reduce the cost of any ritual of the College of Healing by five (minus three from her Magery 3 and minus two from her effective skill for determining ritual effects of 21). In low mana areas, she would reduce her effective skill for determining ritual effects by 5, to 16, meaning that she would only reduce the cost of healing rituals by four.

In the above example, the female mage's base skill for casting healing rituals would be equal to the (College of Healing minus Prerequisite Count), which she could improve by buying up the rituals of the College of Healing individually. If she wanted to cast Healing Slumber, her base skill would be 14, but she would be able to cast it by spending only 1 FP. In a low mana area, her base skill would be 9, her effective skill for determining ritual effects would be 16, and she would spend only 2 FP.
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:05 AM   #8
ericthered
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Why do you need a magical talent? You could treat magical spells like combat skills, which do not normally benefit from talents, and just have Magery representing an individuals ability to efficiently channel mana.

Because I despise IQ 14 wizards. Wizards in fiction are generally presented as being devoted to the work, with a sprinkling of academic subjects, but without the broad competency that full IQ implies and enables. And thus I, at least, need a way to build a wizard who is good at casting spells without being good at talking their way out of trouble, painting pictures, and commanding armies. (and actually save points from not taking that route)
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:01 AM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

And I dislike the fact that practically every PC mage has Magery 3 because of the skill bonus. The objection to IQ 14 mages is like objecting to DX 14 fighters and trying to add a Combat Talent at 10 CP/level to reduce the necessity of high DX. If you want less generally competent mages, there are disadvantages that you can take to make them reflect fictional portrayals better (Absent-minded, Clueless, Confused, etc). I just think that Magery is one of those old holdovers from 3e (if not earlier) that really has no place in the structure of 4e (it really does not mesh with the other Talents because it gives a bonus to too many skills).
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:17 AM   #10
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Tying Spell Energy Discounts to Points Spent in Skill

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I see no reason to include Magery in the calculation at all.
It's included in the formula because otherwise it would be overpowered at 10 points per level. The intent is to link points in skill to cost and not give 'free' discounts for high IQ or Magery.
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