Post Apocalyptic Economics

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

I suppose so, but then what is your advantage versus the other drifter-scroungers?

Being good at it? Generally speaking you want to scrounge in places that haven't already been picked clean, and there's likely a reason (such as being hazardous or difficult to reach) it hasn't been picked clean.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I seem to recall something called "dumb barter" whereby peoples that don't share a common language can trade by leaving goods out at a meeting point - the other party then leaves their counter offer out, whereon the first party adjusts their initial bid - repeat until both sides are content and/or one party takes one of the sets of goods and walks off. Future trades dependant on mutual satisfaction. Note this even works with a gift based culture - who may simply walk off with the initial bid, but can be expected to reappear later with a "gift in return".


(SNIP)

I understand this was the method in Timbuktu, where Bedouins carried goods across the Sahara from the Mediterranean, to trade with merchants who brought ivory and other products from the African interior.

The key thing there was that, even though they had some serious cultural differences, and had different native languages, they were mostly all Muslim. That meant the educated people, at least, all spoke some version of Arabic, and that created the basis of trust needed to engage in that sort of trade.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

I understand this was the method in Timbuktu, where Bedouins carried goods across the Sahara from the Mediterranean, to trade with merchants who brought ivory and other products from the African interior.

The key thing there was that, even though they had some serious cultural differences, and had different native languages, they were mostly all Muslim. That meant the educated people, at least, all spoke some version of Arabic, and that created the basis of trust needed to engage in that sort of trade.

I've also heard of it being used by costal traders - possibly as early as the Phonecians - to trade with primitive tribes from the hinterland.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I've also heard of it being used by costal traders - possibly as early as the Phonecians - to trade with primitive tribes from the hinterland.

The central feature here is that it works because it's an ongoing relationship. If the first time you set out your goods, the locals take them and don't come back with anything, you don't do it again here. There doubtless are lots of times that happened, but those aren't the ones that went into the history books as example of silent trade. Presumably you start out by offering of something you can afford to lose to speculation.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The central feature here is that it works because it's an ongoing relationship. If the first time you set out your goods, the locals take them and don't come back with anything, you don't do it again here. There doubtless are lots of times that happened, but those aren't the ones that went into the history books as example of silent trade. Presumably you start out by offering of something you can afford to lose to speculation.

Yeah, that's sensible. We might also assume that prolonged trading would lead to closer contact and eventual mutual comprehension...

[Michele]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The central feature here is that it works because it's an ongoing relationship. If the first time you set out your goods, the locals take them and don't come back with anything, you don't do it again here. There doubtless are lots of times that happened, but those aren't the ones that went into the history books as example of silent trade. Presumably you start out by offering of something you can afford to lose to speculation.

This rings a bell about an iterated prisoner's dilemma game. Places where barter on trust does work should be remembered not just as examples, but because they'd have good chances of being successful places.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Bruno

History shows that there's a LOT of trade that happens without a shared language. It leads to the creation of things like pidgin languages or specialized trade languages, in order to facilitate trade... but the trade comes first.

The foundation of trust is meeting someone and not hitting them, not taking their stuff, and generally not being an *******.

David Graeber has some useful ethnological examples in Debt. I really wish that people had paid less attention to his big theories about 20th century economics, and looked at the bulk of his book which is a series of examples of how debt, trade, and money have worked in world history.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I seem to recall something called "dumb barter" whereby peoples that don't share a common language can trade by leaving goods out at a meeting point - the other party then leaves their counter offer out, whereon the first party adjusts their initial bid - repeat until both sides are content and/or one party takes one of the sets of goods and walks off. Future trades dependant on mutual satisfaction. Note this even works with a gift based culture - who may simply walk off with the initial bid, but can be expected to reappear later with a "gift in return".

Generally being in the right place at the right time - that is, when the GM has an adventure that needs to be run, the PCs are the people on the spot. Charisma will speed the process up, but even a party with the social skills of monkeys should be able to get themselves re-hired if they deliver results ... or build up a trading relationship if they repeatedly drag useful stuff out of the wilderness.

That's kind of like how they are always doing it on cop and espionage shows, so that the different parties don't have to see one another. I once wrote a story where a casino owner and launderer made a business of brokering deals by having assets sending to their handler by "losing" a fixed game which his handler "won" at the other end, thus sending a check with an encoded message. The pay went back the same way. The house of course took a commission in the process. Any other nefarious projects such as a bill of exchange for contraband, or simply a message of where it was stored, or pay for a hit or whatever could be laundered the same way.

What you are talking about might have been caused by the same reason, of mutual distrust. The possibility of abduction always existed when there was no law in the trade lanes and one of the highest price commodities was slaves.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Michele

Let me look at this from the POV of a worker living in a company town in this world.

Was this meant to be in the Spencer-1 thread in GURPS?

[Michele]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Was this meant to be in the Spencer-1 thread in GURPS?

...yes. My mistake.