Blunt trauma through vehicle armor?

[Gef]

Suppose I have a ST-100 super body slam a tank for some 80 points of damage - that's not enough to dent the armor on a modern tank, but does anything happen to the guys inside or may it as well have been a bug on the windshield?

The blunt trauma the pilot of a battlesuit would suffer is a whopping 16, which might be good for a KO no matter how tough the shell.

Thanks,

GEF

[Refplace]

My initial thought is no.
I would base damage to occupants on knockback, including a headon that slowed or stopped forward movement.

[mr beer]

Checking High Tech 80 points is equal to 23d, twice as much as a Barrett 50 (6d x2 pi+) and not quite as much as a 25mm machine gun Hughes M242 25mm x 137mm (6d x 4 pi++).

I guess that a normal 25mm round is completely ineffective against a modern tank's armour and does nothing to the people inside. DU rounds fired from a minigun at the lightly armoured top of a turret might be a different matter.

I don't know when spalling occurs but you'd want stats for whatever a modern main battle tank uses as a gun...so 120mm?

[Tomsdad]

I'd say if the hit causes enough knock back to move the vehicle treat all the occupants as they have fallen the same distance. But taking into account seat belts, strapping, and interior padding for calculating collision DR and what kind of surface they are "falling" into.

Of course this means you need to do at least ST-2 damage from Cr or Cut to get this so for example a Panzer 4 from Hi tech would need to be hit for 146 damage before getting knocked back 1 yard.

Blunt trauma isn't a very good fit as it passengers are not linked to the the DR of their vehicle in the same way as a wearer is linked to the DR of their worn armour.

(larger forms of power armour might blur the lines a bit)

[AlexanderHowl]

I think a greater concern would be spalling, when penetrating attacks cause fragmentation that wounds or kills occupants. I do not think that 4e has rules for spalling though...

Blunt trauma also only applies against flexible armor when there is no penetrating damage. The super who hits a tank is going to just be a bug on the windshield, as even enough damage to cause knockback will not cause damage to the occupants unless the tank goes flying.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think a greater concern would be spalling, when penetrating attacks cause fragmentation that wounds or kills occupants. I do not think that 4e has rules for spalling though...

The Occupants and Vehicles Damage rules (pg555) covers such effects from penetrating attacks. It also works out that an attack that might might beat a vehicle's DR but not do that much damage to the entire vehicle in terms of the Vehicle's HPs as a whole, can certainly leave the crew the worse for wear!

High Tech also has rules for HESH rounds where this can happen without the Total damage beating the DR

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Blunt trauma also only applies against flexible armor when there is no penetrating damage. The super who hits a tank is going to just be a bug on the windshield, as even enough damage to cause knockback will not cause damage to the occupants unless the tank goes flying.

That's why I'd do the what I suggested above, the chances of injury would be slight unless the tank is flung several yards in one go.

[Rupert]

The applicable rules would be on B432, under "Whiplash and Collision". The velocity would be however much knockback was done, in my opinion. Note that tank crews are not generally belted or strapped in, and there a many hard and often fairly sharp edges and corners in a tank. On the other hand, tank crews are used to dealing with these and sudden bumps and stops.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The applicable rules would be on B432, under "Whiplash and Collision". The velocity would be however much knockback was done, in my opinion. Note that tank crews are not generally belted or strapped in, and there a many hard and often fairly sharp edges and corners in a tank. On the other hand, tank crews are used to dealing with these and sudden bumps and stops.

Ah cheers, I know there were specific rules!

[Anthony]

ST 100 is rather on the low end to do much to a tank through simple violence, though it's likely adequate to rip the hatch off and get inside, and should be stronger than the turret motors.

[Gef]

Thanks for the replies, guys - I'll check those references. We still lack stats for a modern main battle tank as far as I know, but I think a decent ballpark might be to take the "light tank" from ultratech and quadruple the DR (and double the weight). I figure it may not have full DR 800 on the sides, maybe something more like DR 400 plus 200 laminate, but I figure a super's not getting through that without an armor divisor anyway, so I don't need more precision.

Trying to benchmark a game where the strongest brick can go toe-to-toe with a tank yields point values far in excess of what a different kind of super needs to mind control a stadium. I've played around with super effort, Self-Only TK as a cheap ST substitute, power blow* or breaking blow, and Armor Divisor enhancement to ST-based attacks, and heavy use of limitations. The only thing that looks promising is insubstantiality or armor divisors above 10, and that starts to look like something other than super strength.

Raping the system yields me a 500pt mutant with ST 80. Triple for Power Blow yields 240, damage 25d, with blunt claws and karate bonus that's north of 180 damage for an all-out attack (strong), with armor divisor 10 not good enough for front armor but some structural damage to the sides. It's also good for 45ton lift, enough to flip it, and with a good margin on Lifting enough to toss it. A bit clunky but less so than other ways; is there a better approach to model brick vs. main battle tank in a way where the brick has a better than even chance of victory? Is there one that doesn't involve using the super strength to carry a supply of anti-tank missiles or limpet mines?

*My understanding is that you can't use Breaking Blow and Power Blow at the same time - so go with power blow and buy your armor divisor a la carte.

GEF