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Old 11-28-2008, 02:37 AM   #121
JAW
 
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole
Same with special exercises...+20% to draw weight for each level, rather than truly adding ST, at 4/level or something. This is slightly less useful than generic ArmST, but basically becomes the equivalent of ST for "bow only," which assumes that your exercises are so special they're only good for one thing.
I don't see any problem for buying one or two points of "bow only ST" - I'd say it's 2 points a level. Lifting only is -50% right - and should be usable for bows IMHO - you don't need striking strength for bows. Arm strenght is -50% also - right? Using multiplicative its 2.5 points combined useless for HP, carrying, striking, - lifting when legs are required.. Round up to 3 - it's still usefull for pull-ups - hainging from cliffs etc.. Bow only - round down to 2. It might still be useful for pulling bars apart or for any actions when you grab two objects and try to pull them apart. I'd allow at least one point straight for two points - and another one with special exercises perk.. If strongbow perk 1 points for 1 point of bow only ST perk is RAW - fine with me and spec exercises perk for buying one more point of bow only ST for 2 points (total 3) might be plausible - the "deformed skeletons" and all.. Strongbow perk might not apply to pulling bars apart - so it would be even more specific - extra strength in two fingers etc. (those that they cut of if you get captured by the French..).
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:07 AM   #122
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
Well - warbows are different from sport bows obviously. I reckon at least longbows would be usable at half their listed draw strength - if their draw curve is indeed curving up a "half drawn" 150 lbs longbow would require maybe that 65lbs - ie optimal for ST 11 - the min strenght. And it might indeed be good enough to be accurate - though not as accurate as a modern sport bow designed for 65lbs full draw at ranges given for ST 11.
Warbows differ from sporting bows in having heavier draws.

The recommended draw weight for people applies regardless.

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Originally Posted by JAW
Way to reality test this would of course be having a fairly regular ST 11 archer shoot with a replica longbow that is 150 lbs at full draw..
Which is impossible.

A fairly normal-looking man can do so, but only after having practised shooting longbows for many years.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:10 AM   #123
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Which is impossible.

A fairly normal-looking man can do so, but only after having practised shooting longbows for many years.
Are you sure about that,

If one looks at the draw curve - http://www.mrfizzix.com/archery/bow.html - of a non compoud bow one sees that the required draw force is half the maximum at halfway..

And the green area here is the accumulated energy..

So if you draw a 150lbs longbow halfway you load it with as much energy as drawing a 75 lbs bow fully (if the draw curve is straight - which it isn't but should be close enough..) - in any case if you draw it to until 75 LBs you get as much energy as with a 75 lbs bow with similar draw curve.

So you should be able to use 150lbs bow..
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Originally Posted by Polymadas
Well, the Mary Rose bows are nothing exceptional: many of them were spares in storage. I don't think there was anything special about the archers onboard. And the 16th century was a declining age of archery. A few decades later someone complained that not enough archers could shoot a quarter-pound arrow any more, which is just right to get maximum energy from a 150 lb bow.
..you just have to use lighter arrows to get them to reasonable speeds - as you can load less energy to them.. Note that the complaint was that the old bows were unusable - it was that people no more could fire heavy arrows accurately..

Last edited by JAW; 11-28-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:16 AM   #124
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
Are you sure about that,

If one looks at the draw curve - http://www.mrfizzix.com/archery/bow.html - of a non compoud bow one sees that the required draw force is half the maximum at halfway..

And the green area here is the accumulated energy..

So if you draw a 150lbs longbow halfway you load it with as much energy as drawing a 75 lbs bow fully (if the draw curve is straight - which it isn't but should be close enough..) - in any case if you draw it to until 75 LBs you get as much energy as with a 75 lbs bow with similar draw curve.

So you should be able to use 150lbs bow..
You said that a ST 11 man should be able to use a replica 150lb at full draw.

Which is clearly not true.

If you're wondering whether he could use it by drawing it only halfway to his chest, perhaps he could. But it would strain him more than using a bow designed for his own ST and it would be less accurate. I'd apply an unfamilitarity penalty for shooting at such a weird angle and I'd penalise Acc by -1. And charge an extra 1 FP after a battle.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:19 AM   #125
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
..you just have to use lighter arrows to get them to reasonable speeds - as you can load less energy to them.. Note that the complaint was that the old bows were unusable - it was that people no more could fire heavy arrows accurately..
It makes little sense to design bows that are heavier than what your archers are shooting. Nor do lighter arrows perform as well against padded jacks and maille as the heavier Type 16 war arrows.

I think that proportionally fewer people in the late 15th and 16th century could use 150lb warbows than in the 14th century. I think the archers on the Mary Rose were among that section of society who could still draw a warbow of acceptable power.

That makes them an elite at any time, but a much rarer elite than two or three generations before.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:27 AM   #126
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
You said that a ST 11 man should be able to use a replica 150lb at full draw.

Which is clearly not true.

If you're wondering whether he could use it by drawing it only halfway to his chest, perhaps he could. But it would strain him more than using a bow designed for his own ST and it would be less accurate. I'd apply an unfamilitarity penalty for shooting at such a weird angle and I'd penalise Acc by -1. And charge an extra 1 FP after a battle.
I did not say that ST 11 man could use 150lbs bow at full draw - I said that ST 11 archer could maybe shoot with a replica longbow that is 150 lbs at full draw.... ie draw a bow that is rated for 150 lbs when fully drawn by drawing it halfway. And I did mention that it would likely not be as accurate. I'm not sure if there'd be extra penalty with longbows though - as they are drawn really long with full draw - at least if you have ST 11+.. Longbows have worse accuracy and bigger min strength to begin with compared to composite bows in GURPS RAW. So the basic stats could be good enough for bows that are usable from ST 11 to ST 17 - which would make perfect sense considering that every male in whole british islands was expected to be able to use them after some training..

Last edited by JAW; 11-28-2008 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:34 AM   #127
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
It makes little sense to design bows that are heavier than what your archers are shooting. Nor do lighter arrows perform as well against padded jacks and maille as the heavier Type 16 war arrows.
Well - weapons designers can be overly optimistic. Also if the bows are useful at lower strength also it means the same bow is useful for beginner and still useful after training for a year or two with it..

As I understand English longbows were mass produced for widespread use - they were not custom made for each user..
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:35 AM   #128
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
I did not say that ST 11 man could use 150lbs bow at full draw - I said that ST 11 archer could maybe shoot with a replica longbow that is 150 lbs at full draw.... ie draw a bow that is rated for 150 lbs when fully drawn by drawing it halfway.
Ah.

That is an ambigious sentence and I read it the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by JAW
And I did mention that it would likely not be as accurate. I'm not sure if there'd be extra penalty with longbows though - as they are drawn really long with full draw - at least if you have ST 11+.. Longbows have worse accuracy and bigger min strength to begin with compared to composite bows in GURPS RAW. So the basic stats could be good enough for bows that are usable from ST 11 to ST 17 - which would make perfect sense considering that every male in whole british islands was expected to be able to use them after some training..
Longbows and Composite Bows have Acc 3.

And every male was expected to be able to use a longbow. Not every male carried one that drew a 150lb.

Those archers who used lighter bows might not have been prefered as battlefield soldiers, but they could shoot in competitions and hunt.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:42 AM   #129
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
Well - weapons designers can be overly optimistic. Also if the bows are useful at lower strength also it means the same bow is useful for beginner and still useful after training for a year or two with it..

As I understand English longbows were mass produced for widespread use - they were not custom made for each user..
Weapon designers as a specific class is a more modern thing. Bowyers would build bows that experience showed them were usable. Many archers probably built their own bows and the bowyers would nearly certainly know many of the archers personally.

And while a beginner might grow into a bow, it makes no sense to equip soldiers (who have been shooting their bows for years or decades) with bows that draw too much. It yields no benefit and it detracts from their effectiveness.

Not to mention that the specific method of drawing a longbow is attested in many period sources. There is no evidence of anyone drawing a warbow in any other way, nor is it stated that some people drew their bows fully and others did not.

The way a longbow is aimed depends on muscle memory and experience. It depends on every release being done in the same way. If someone were to draw the bow less than half the way, he'd have no frame of reference for aiming it. All his experience would be useless.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:43 AM   #130
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
Well - weapons designers can be overly optimistic. Also if the bows are useful at lower strength also it means the same bow is useful for beginner and still useful after training for a year or two with it..

As I understand English longbows were mass produced for widespread use - they were not custom made for each user..
Archbishop Latimer (whom Queen Mary burned) delivered a famous sermon on archery. He describes his father giving him a series of bows as he grew up and got stronger. Part of this was that no eight-year-old was going to use a six-foot longbow, but its fairly clear that stronger archers selected stronger bows. Perhaps this didn't happen when getting a fresh bow from storage in an emergency, but under most circumstances an archer could try several and pick the one he liked. I think the Strategikon also suggests that better archers should use stronger bows.

I don't know of any reference to using a partial draw on a heavy bow, although it might work in emergencies. But a bow suited to the archer's strength would be more practical. The English were very proud of using a full draw on heavy bows, but if you look at the sources the idea of archers who only draw to the chest seems to be a myth.
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