Report To The Stakeholders

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

FLGS are dying everywhere (here in Valencia, Spain, they still exist, but they're more often than not labors of love, as proved by the fact that the all eventually end up closing. The ones I grew with no longer exist, and the new ones are mainly comics/boardgames/MTG/Warhammer focused).

As far as I can tell, that has always been true. From the old stores which mostly sold board games and wargames, to stores in the 90s selling TCGs, to stores in the oughties selling prepainted miniatures, to stores since the 1970s making most of their money off comics and graphic novels and miscellaneous merchandise. Roleplaying is an extremely cheap hobby, and mail order and the internet have been important for buying rare books for decades. I think that stores which made most of their money from selling RPG materials and lasted many years have always been rare.

And the overwhelming majority of small businesses close within five years.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Kromm

A major issue with RPGs is that the price the market is willing to bear hasn't kept up with publication costs. If we must rely on the same-sized customer base that GURPS had in its early days – say, in the mid-1980s through mid-1990s – then we would have to charge ~$38.00 for the 128-page softbacks that used to cost $16.95. Nobody would pay that, so the obvious alternatives are attracting more customers willing to pay less (difficult in a market that's being bled away by other games media), lowering costs (PDFs do this nicely, but the hobby is conservative and too many gamers are wed to printed books), or just not publishing. Crowdfunding is yet another option, but one that's neither simple nor well-understood at this juncture; ultimately, it's unclear whether that wouldn't run into the "$38 for a softback" barrier, just from a different direction.

Perhaps because the hobby is so cheap, gamers do tend to complain about spending amounts of money which buyers of other kinds of rare books would accept without a blink.

Another issue is that most of the costs of gaming are start-up costs. Once you have the core rulebook, and the GM has whatever supplements he is using, you don't need anything else. Miniatures games and card games have the aspect that players can always use more minis or cards, which may have something to do with their always having been more financially secure for the manufacturers.

[philreed]

NOTE: Discussion of eyesight and age should be taken elsewhere. Please help us keep the discussion focused on the report.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by philreed

It's certainly a challenge. Unfortunately, if we tried to bring the extremely niche PDF material to print it, those titles would have less of a chance at profitability than a title like Discworld. We talk with distributors, retailers, and other publishers daily, and until something in the market OR with the design/presentation of RPGs changes dramatically then RPGs will continue to struggle. The leaders -- D&D, Pathfinder -- will succeed at retail because of the volume they can move while smaller titles will thrive if the publisher can keep overhead low and survive on razor margins.

However, if shops won't carry niche RPG material (rationally enough if it doesn't sell), then there is no reason to worry about annoying them by use of crowdfunding to finance new niche RPG books. If they complain about you running Kickstarters for books they wouldn't have carried in the first place, you can just give them an ironic stare and then ignore them.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Another issue is that most of the costs of gaming are start-up costs. Once you have the core rulebook, and the GM has whatever supplements he is using, you don't need anything else. Miniatures games and card games have the aspect that players can always use more minis or cards, which may have something to do with their always having been more financially secure for the manufacturers.

It was a truism even in the 1980s that the profitability of an RPG line came from supplements, not the base game.

A typical modern boardgame company releases new games every year as well as expansions for the old ones, and for the most part an individual boardgame doesn't offer as many options in gameplay or as much entertainment time before everyone's bored with it as an individual RPG (yes, some of the single-scenario indie RPGs are exceptions).

I don't know how many hours of play I've got out of GURPS fourth edition – at a very rough estimate, something like 1,500. Nobody makes computer games like that now, or boardgames, because without a collaborative GM it's much harder to keep things interesting, and it's much easier to sell people a whole new game if they've "finished" the old one.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by RogerBW

It was a truism even in the 1980s that the profitability of an RPG line came from supplements, not the base game.

It's not just roleplaying games. A 1981 NY Times article -- https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...6658%2C1480942 -- about the toy industry addressed this same issue.

"'Our strategy is to put out lines of products, with add-on possibilities,' Mr. [Glen] Hastings [then president of Mattel] said. 'It's more profitable. It extends the life of the product.' The approach makes both retailers and parents happy, toy makers say."

We will continue to support GURPS as best we can. But we will not support it in a way that threatens the life of the line, and producing books without a clear plan to profitability is not an option.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Perhaps because the hobby is so cheap, gamers do tend to complain about spending amounts of money which buyers of other kinds of rare books would accept without a blink.

Definitely. Let's compare my three hobbies:

Argentine Tango. All dances have a technical side, but Argentine tango is particularly demanding – in part because of its unusual posture, and in part because there's danger inherent in leg contact, kicks, and high movements, and in sharing weight for off-axis steps. You must study and train, so at any given time, my wife and I are taking a group class that costs ~$20/hour per person, working follower technique with a private instructor for $70/hour, working leader technique with a different instructor for $50/hour, attending workshops that cost $20-$30/hour per person, and going out to dance at $10-12/night per person. Special events, like concerts and festivals, are on top of all that. Then there are the shoes, which start at ~$100 for a cheap practice pair and go (way) up from there. I cannot even think about affording this on my pay! We can do this only because my wife works at a tango studio and gets paid in kind – i.e., one of our hobbies requires its own part-time job to support.

Mixology. I do not like alcohol for its own sake – I like interesting flavor combinations made with intriguing ingredients. To play that game, I require a large palette to work from. I also need tools of the trade, and sometimes tend bar at tango events where there are minimal tools and I must bring my own. I've often dropped $200+ in a month on base spirits, amari, apéritifs, bitters, syrups, garnishes, etc., and can easily spend more bolstering my supplies for a single party. I try to acquire my glassware and tools in a thrifty way, but at times there's no alternative to full-price gear, which is when you get into $45 muddlers (don't even ask about the small bar fridge). Fortunately, tending bar on a very, very part-time basis means tip money; a couple of bar shifts in a month can cover most of the expense, but here again I need extracurricular work to pay for my hobby.

Gaming. I get all my GURPS products as employee comps. If I didn't . . . well, the average cost would be around $25-$30/month. Even on game-designer pay, I could afford that without a second or third thought (or second or third job). Since most jobs pay better, if I suddenly changed my line of work and no longer received comps, I could very likely afford gaming without blinking (the cost of dice, maps, etc. was paid gradually between 1979 and present, and is now fully amortized). It's almost insignificantly cheap next to my other pastimes. Most people I know pay more than that a month for smokes, Starbucks, junk food, or other bad habits.

So this is my perspective. I have real trouble understanding an unwillingness to pay a few tens of dollars once or twice a month when in my mind, "hobby" usually means something one or two orders of magnitude more costly. But I can have as much trouble as I like and that won't change one fact: Gaming has always had a culture of cheapness. It's a helluva way to try to make a profit, or just a living.

Originally Posted by RogerBW

It was a truism even in the 1980s that the profitability of an RPG line came from supplements, not the base game.

The cheapness shows up here, too . . . I have had very few people explode in anger at me about my work. Yes, there were some bitter words when we launched GURPS Fourth Edition, but "edition wars" are predictable things and I just let those remarks roll off. But one area where people have sometimes been genuinely nasty – where they have made personal digs – is having to pay for supplements covering topics they felt "should" have been in the Basic Set or one of the large core expansions. To my way of thinking, producing follow-up supplements is just how I pay my rent, and entirely fair, expected, and above-board; in my critics' eyes, it's akin to dishonesty or even theft. The unwillingness to pay $5.99 here or $7.99 there for a little supplement when that's how we pay our bills leaves me gobsmacked. These critics do not seem to grasp that if they are unwilling to do that, the line's profits will plummet to the point where GURPS is unviable no matter what fund-raising tricks we try.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Kromm;1956955
The cheapness shows up here, too . . . I have had very few people explode in anger at me about my work. Yes, there were some bitter words when we launched [I

GURPS Fourth Edition,[/I] but "edition wars" are predictable things and I just let those remarks roll off. But one area where people have sometimes been genuinely nasty – where they have made personal digs – is having to pay for supplements covering topics they felt "should" have been in the Basic Set or one of the large core expansions. To my way of thinking, producing follow-up supplements is just how I pay my rent, and entirely fair, expected, and above-board; in my critics' eyes, it's akin to dishonesty or even theft. The unwillingness to pay $5.99 here or $7.99 there for a little supplement when that's how we pay our bills leaves me gobsmacked. These critics do not seem to grasp that if they are unwilling to do that, the line's profits will plummet to the point where GURPS is unviable no matter what fund-raising tricks we try.

Interesting as the most successful GURPS books now often tend to be worked examples of things that you can do yourself with the Basic set or larger core expansions.

E.g. DF, MH, RPM, psionics etc

I'd often enough recommend starting with the smaller supplement and skipping something like Powers for the time being.

I'm pretty sure SJ Games could release alternate magic rules supplements until the cows come home with few complaints.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Whether Steve would agree, I haven't the faintest idea. He no longer involves himself in the GURPS editorial process, though.

Anyway, it's always been made clear that SJGames exists to be a robust, profitable company, not as a monument to Steve's design legacy. Though that leaves the question of how one explains the Ogre reprint, or whether GURPS would still be published at all without some sentimentality; companies with a huge fat cash cow and a bunch of less profitable sidelines normally end up focussing entirely on milking the cash cow, killing off the tiresome distractions, in the gaming business as elsewhere.

I discussed this at some length in my interview with him over a gaming ballistic, for those interested

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Interesting as the most successful GURPS books now often tend to be worked examples of things that you can do yourself with the Basic set or larger core expansions.

E.g. DF, MH, RPM, psionics etc

I'd often enough recommend starting with the smaller supplement and skipping something like Powers for the time being.

I'm pretty sure SJ Games could release alternate magic rules supplements until the cows come home with few complaints.

Part of the reason is that GURPS core materials (Basic Set, Powers, Thaumatology,...) are incredibly information dense, optimized to serve as reference manuals. They provide tools to create and tweak your game.

The genius of DF, MH, Psionic Powers, Divine Favor, RPM, Sorcery,... is that they give you examples of what you can do with those tools. They're akin to tutorials or "for dummies" books in other fields. It doesn't hurt that the quality of the examples is superb though, thanks to talented authors like Kromm and PK.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I discussed this at some length in my interview with him over a gaming ballistic, for those interested

I already linked the interview in post 642...