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Old 08-02-2017, 11:11 PM   #1
Siliconhobbit
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Default The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

Having recently returned to tabletop gaming, specifically as a GM for the GURPS system, I've been wracking my brain over the muddled mess that is detecting magic and identifying spells and magical effects and all of the various ways it can be accomplished. On top of that, I see that the 4th Edition has done nothing to make it any easier or even streamlined it in any way either.

So lets get right into the mess and see if anyone else has issue with it and some explanations about it all, because I just cannot make any sense of it.



Magery 0+: (Basic pg. 66) ...The GM makes a Sense roll (p. 358) when you first see a magic item, and again when you first touch it. On a success, you intuitively know that the item is magical. Add your Magery level to Perception when you roll to sense magic items.
  • Simple enough. Those with the advantage of Magery get the ability to detect if an item is magic when they first SEE it and then again when they TOUCH it (I'm assuming the 2nd attempt when touching is if they failed the roll when first seeing it.) Simple, handy, convenient. The 4th Edition Magic book goes on to explain under the Detect Magic spell that the spell is not the same as the Advantage which only detects PERMANENT magic items.

Detect Magic: (Magic pg. 101) Determines whether any one object is magical. If the spell is successful, a second casting tells whether the magic is temporary or permanent. A critical success on either roll fully identifies the spell, as for Analyze Magic. This is not the same as the ability to detect magic items that comes with Magery 0; that ability only detects permanent magic items, while Detect Magic detects items, spells, magical creatures, and any other ongoing magical effect.
  • Ok. I am guessing this spell is 2-fold. #1 Its for those with Magery that FAILED both Sense rolls and want to be sure if an item is magic or not. #2, it can be cast again (if the spell determines the object/item IS magical) to find out if the magic is temporary or permanent. So if an item has only ONE SINGLE spell effect on it, a player with Magery would need to cast Detect Magic twice on the item to know it was magic and if it was permanent or not. Extremely lucky rolls will fully identify that one single spell effect on the item. This process seems rather ham-fisted as well as time consuming and an FP sink.
  • It also seems as though the only way to determine if an item has MORE THAN ONE effect or spell available to it is to cast Analyze Magic upon it. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Identify Magic: (Magic pg. 102) Identifies what spell or spells have just been cast (within the last five seconds), or are being cast at the moment, on or by the subject. It does not identify the spells on a permanently enchanted item. One casting identifies all spells cast on or by the subject. However, if any of these spells are totally unknown to the caster – not just spells he doesn’t know, but spells he has never heard of – the GM should provide only a vague description...
  • This spell...OUT of combat might come in handy, but only for recent effects and NOT for anything permanent. This spell can also be a waste of time for players if the spells and/or effects are from spells that the player does not currently know. Giving the GM the option to screw with the player with phrases like "Some kind of physical protection." or "Possibly fire with a magical source." If I was that player, I'd reach over and throttle my GM for screwing me with such a spell. I feel that the NAME and USE of this spell is much of a misnomer and causes more problems than it solves.
  • It would seem to me that this is a very situational spell and not very utilitarian. Aside from the fact that it has no use on items that have permanent magical effects or spells on them, if a player DIDN'T know wether or not an effect or spell was permanent this spell could easily waste the time and FP of the caster. "Oh, sorry there Bob the Mage, the spells this item are permanent. You've just wasted your time and 2 FP and the ONLY knowledge you gained is that you'll have to cast a different spell." (GM cackling behind the GM's screen ducking as the Magic book flies past his head)

Analyze Magic: (Magic pg. 102) Identifies exactly what spells are on the subject. If the subject has more than one spell on it, Analyze Magic identifies the one that took the least energy, and tells the caster “there are more spells.” It can then be cast again to determine the next spell, and so on. Name and
Password enchantments (p. 68) count as separate spells that resist at +5; any individual wizard may only attempt to Analyze a Name or Password once. Like Identify Spell, above, it will give limited results when the caster is faced with an unknown spell.

  • This spell is awful if a player needs to identify the exact SPELLS or EFFECTS on an item if it has MORE THAN ONE spell or effect associated with it. An item with 3 permanent magic spells on it will cost the player 24 FP to figure out what those spells are. God forbid there are other effects associated with it as well. ON TOP OF THAT, it takes ONE WHOLE HOUR to cast. /facepalm. Really? And again like the Identify Spell, if the player doesn't KNOW those spells him or herself, this spell prompts the GM to give VAGUE answers.

I just do NOT know what to do with any of this drek. On the one hand, each thing (advantage or spell) gives specific information on exactly WHAT it can do and how it can do it. On the other hand, each thing is extremely limited in just what it CAN do, and in some cases, prompts the GM to be as VAGUE as possible and even when a player combines ALL of these things together, trying to figure out what a magic item can ACTUALLY do, may result in them throwing a book at the GM because in the end they STILL cannot figure it out. Not to mention the amount of time that must be invested and the amount of FP that will need to be spent, with NO guarantee at any amount of success.

Is anyone else finding that these rules for players identifying magic items in a timely manner is just to convoluted, time consuming, and expensive? I'm seriously considering just getting rid of Detect Magic, Identify Magic, AND Analyze Magic and creating one simple spell that covers all three spells. One that ISN'T confusing or vague, and allows the players to quickly figure out what a magic item does, put it to good use, and move on.

The only other option is to let the rules stand as they are, increasing my frustration in dealing with magic items and the chance that I'll have a book thrown at my head, and increasing the frustration and confusion of the players themselves.

There is one more option I suppose: Do not give my players ANY magic items at all...

Does anyone have any good explanations of all of these items or some reasoning behind it all that will clear up confusion? Perhaps some home brew solutions of your own that you created to solve these problems and make it more streamlined? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.




Side Note: This is my first post and I haven't found any posts yet discussing this. If there ARE posts that address this, please feel free to add some links for me. Thank you!
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:04 AM   #2
johndallman
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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Originally Posted by Siliconhobbit View Post
The 4th Edition Magic book goes on to explain under the Detect Magic spell that the spell is not the same as the Advantage which only detects PERMANENT magic items.
... not the same as the detection you get from the Magery advantage, which only detects permanent magic items.

There's also a Detect advantage (Basic set, page 48), which if you take it as Detect (Magic) detects magic of any kind, including temporary items, and ongoing spells.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:26 AM   #3
johndallman
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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Originally Posted by Siliconhobbit View Post
Is anyone else finding that these rules for players identifying magic items in a timely manner is just too convoluted, time consuming, and expensive? I'm seriously considering just getting rid of Detect Magic, Identify Magic, AND Analyze Magic and creating one simple spell that covers all three spells. One that ISN'T confusing or vague, and allows the players to quickly figure out what a magic item does, put it to good use, and move on.
That's fine if that's how your game is meant to run. None of my background in fantasy games has made me expect to be able to identify magic items that do several things quickly or easily, so I'm a bit confused about the style of game you're expecting.

Identify Magic is, indeed, a spell for pretty specific circumstances, and I've never seen it used. Analyse Magic gets used a lot, but not in combat, or when under time pressure. GURPS magicians recover fatigue points fairly quickly, and get reductions in spell costs for high skill; their resource management is different from most games.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:03 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

Identify Magic is (in my mind) primarily a combat spell. Consider the heritage of GURPS back to Melee and Wizard. You don't always know what spell an opponent is casting (even though in most games, players just name them, they shouldn't really act on that knowledge). But sometimes it would be useful to know what defense an enemy just created, or what ensorcelment they just inflicted, so that you can properly counter it.

The bit about spells known is simply to reflect the advantage of a trained mage with broad base of knowledge and experience in recognizing magical effects, as opposed to a Johnny One-Spell. Breadth and study helps. If you have no clue about entire areas of magic, then casting a spell that gives you details isn't going to help you, any more than would reading the source code to a desktop app when you're not a programmer would teach you how to use that app.

(There are, of course, settings in which magical isn't studied, but is some sort of innate magical talent. For those, you might well alter the rule (and others) to better reflect the way that setting works.)
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:07 PM   #5
sir_pudding
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

I see Thaumatology (the skill) being more useful than Identity Magic, in most cases though.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:43 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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I see Thaumatology (the skill) being more useful than Identity Magic, in most cases though.
I require Thaumatology (skill) attempts to identify to take at least 10 seconds of evaluation (may be rushed, -10 for "takes no time") in combat to come to a determination on what spells are/were cast, presuming there are witnessable effects.

I penalize attempts to analyze magics that have no witnessable effects (a further -10, however witnessable effects reduce this penalty to, up to -0 for immediately obvious effects).

This makes Identify Spell invaluable as a combat intelligence gathering tool.
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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I require Thaumatology (skill) attempts to identify to take at least 10 seconds of evaluation (may be rushed, -10 for "takes no time") in combat to come to a determination on what spells are/were cast, presuming there are witnessable effects.
That seems like a hard sell for Create Fire or Lightning or whatever...
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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Originally Posted by Siliconhobbit View Post
  • This spell is awful if a player needs to identify the exact SPELLS or EFFECTS on an item if it has MORE THAN ONE spell or effect associated with it. An item with 3 permanent magic spells on it will cost the player 24 FP to figure out what those spells are. God forbid there are other effects associated with it as well. ON TOP OF THAT, it takes ONE WHOLE HOUR to cast. /facepalm. Really? And again like the Identify Spell, if the player doesn't KNOW those spells him or herself, this spell prompts the GM to give VAGUE answers.
Remember that there are skills as well. Take the Thaumatology skill to recognise "an unknown spell when you see it... etc." Another possibility is Hidden Lore (Magic Items) or Expert Skill (Magic Items). There's a host of other useful skills - Archeology for ancient magic items, Literature for items famed in saga and song, etc.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
That seems like a hard sell for Create Fire or Lightning or whatever...
Presumably these examples come with a significant bonus, if you even require a roll.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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That seems like a hard sell for Create Fire or Lightning or whatever...
Some spells are really easy to figure out, yes. Unless you're figuring out whether they're an illusion.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Confusion of Detecting Magic and Items

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Presumably these examples come with a significant bonus, if you even require a roll.
Cutting 10 seconds of Concentrate Maneuvers to a free action is likely to eat any bonus you get.
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