Blocking spells interaction with Defenses?

[Talonos]

I'm having a hard time separating blocking spells from the active defenses they represent. Could you help me understand things a little better?

The question last session was over a spell called "Blink" from GURPS Magic, but my questions also extend to such spells as catch spell, deflect missile, ironarm, hardiness, etc.

It was my understanding that these counted as active defense rolls. That means, to me, that if somebody feinted and gave the caster a -5 penalty on active defense rolls, that would apply to the spell in question as well. (presumably, the attack was tricky enough that the caster had less time to react, applying a penalty to the skill roll.) I also figured that your spell roll would be reduced by deceptive attacks, spinning attacks, ripostes, and so forth. However, my player then asked if, considering they counted as active defense rolls, you could get bonuses to the spell roll for retreating, burning FP, having a deflection enchantment on ones armor, and so forth.

Assuming for a moment that I was wrong (which I'm starting to get the feeling I am) then what about being attacked from behind, which "does not allow a defense roll"? What about somebody rolling a critical hit? Can one blink away from that?

Also, assuming I'm wrong, am I correct in assuming I should make feints sound like regular misses, and not mention deceptive attacks until the dice are rolled? (For example, instead of saying "he makes an all out feint and attack and you must defend at a -7" penalty, I should say "he attacks twice, misses one, and hits the next. Do you you use parry 14 or blink 16 to defend?") That would bring things back into balance somewhat, because it would force him to either burn 2 FP per block "just to be safe" or risk that most recent hit to be a deceptive attack in disguise.

Thank you for your help.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Talonos

I'm having a hard time separating blocking spells from the active defenses they represent. Could you help me understand things a little better?

The question last session was over a spell called "Blink" from GURPS Magic, but my questions also extend to such spells as catch spell, deflect missile, ironarm, hardiness, etc.

It was my understanding that these counted as active defense rolls.

I've never treated them as active defenses. They are spells which act like active defenses.

That means, to me, that if somebody feinted and gave the caster a -5 penalty on active defense rolls, that would apply to the spell in question as well.

Never in my games has it been that way. The caster is casting a spell, not making an active defense.

However, my player then asked if, considering they counted as active defense rolls, you could get bonuses to the spell roll for retreating, burning FP, having a deflection enchantment on ones armor, and so forth.

Nope. Casting a spell. It's magic, not a logical action governed by the laws of physics.

Assuming for a moment that I was wrong (which I'm starting to get the feeling I am) then what about being attacked from behind, which "does not allow a defense roll"? What about somebody rolling a critical hit? Can one blink away from that?

This is just basic role playing. The reason your character doesn't get an active defense roll is because he doesn't know anything is coming. The same would go for spell casting. Your character doesn't know there's anything coming, so why would your character cast a spell to prevent it?

It's no different than if you're running a pre-made dungeon that the player has already played with a different role-playing group some other time. His character shouldn't act on the information that he, as the player, has.

Also, assuming I'm wrong, am I correct in assuming I should make feints sound like regular misses, and not mention deceptive attacks until the dice are rolled? (For example, instead of saying "he makes an all out feint and attack and you must defend at a -7" penalty, I should say "he attacks twice, misses one, and hits the next. Do you you use parry 14 or blink 16 to defend?") That would bring things back into balance somewhat, because it would force him to either burn 2 FP per block "just to be safe" or risk that most recent hit to be a deceptive attack in disguise.

There have been a number of threads on this before and the general consensus is it's best to do such things secretly. But, for our group, we don't.

[weby]

Many of the blocking spells work as a defence of the kind given and thus according to my interpretation at times reduce future defence rolls like parries with the same hand you used deflect missile with and would get the bonuses for retreats/drops...

Originally Posted by Magic 12-13

It is the magical equivalent of a block, parry,
or dodge (and often counts as one of
these defenses; see the spell descriptionfor details).

[Tinman]

In my group faints ect do apply a penaly to the defencive spells. We don't usualy give bonuses for retreats unless it's clear it would apply. Retrat & Iron arm frex. The FP bonus is never appropreate, IMO. (Concentrating is kinda the opposite of extra efort.)

Don't forget that instead of the normal def roll of: sk/2+3 the wizard is casting at full skill.

[Talonos]

Hmm... It's interesting how undefined it seems to be. That quote weby quoted is the one that confused me. How much does "counting as a defense" allow it to affect/be affected by other modifiers?

This is just basic role playing. The reason your character doesn't get an active defense roll is because he doesn't know anything is coming.

Wouldn't that imply that a successful feint, which messes with your ability to determine that an attack is coming, would also reduce defense? What about mental stun, which represents surprise? Positioning? (Is it harder to ironarm when you're on the ground?) If you ironarm, then do you get a penalty to parry if attacked again? (Multiple parries?)

I'd be interested in another opinion or two, just so I could get a better idea of how people are ruling this in their own games. What do you rule in your campaign?

[weby]

Replies as used in my games:

Originally Posted by Talonos

Hmm... It's interesting how undefined it seems to be. That quote weby quoted is the one that confused me. How much does "counting as a defense" allow it to affect/be affected by other modifiers?Wouldn't that imply that a successful feint, which messes with your ability to determine that an attack is coming, would also reduce defense?

Yes, but the defender can use the spell skill instead of weapon skill if they wish for the feint penalty determination.

What about mental stun, which represents surprise?

Yes

Positioning? (Is it harder to ironarm when you're on the ground?)

Yes

If you ironarm, then do you get a penalty to parry if attacked again? (Multiple parries?)

Yes, but only one iron arm.

I'd be interested in another opinion or two, just so I could get a better idea of how people are ruling this in their own games. What do you rule in your campaign?

[Talonos]

I love how completely opposite Weby and stripe's viewpoints are.

I suppose this is when somebody asks the mighty Kromm?

[munin]

Kromm post.

Blocking spells are not active defenses. They are spells which take no time to cast. They are affected by things which affect spells, not by things which affect active defenses (feints, etc.).

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by munin

Kromm post.

Blocking spells are not active defenses. They are spells which take no time to cast. They are affected by things which affect spells, not by things which affect active defenses (feints, etc.).

There's Perks like Blocking Spell Mastery too which some people require in order to cast multiple Blocking spells per turn, those set multiple Blocks in one turn as -5.