Expert Skill (Pneumatology) and Hidden Lore (Spirits)

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If it's not an official errata then author's intent means nothing when it goes against R.A.W.
I don't mean that to sound combative to you or Kromm. It's just that interpreting vague wording is one thing, and flat out arguing with the R.A.W. is something entirely different.
Your interpretation sounds much more fun, but for this forum R.A.W. should be the base "language" and any house rules always stated up front.

Yes, I remember the discussion where Kromm talked about "skills we forgot," but it does seem to go up against the RAW. In an attempt to unify the two definitions, and to make them useful, and to figure out when one would use one or the other, I've interpreted them this way...

Hobby Skill: This means you have knowledge and/or productive skill that has very limited practical value (and often no practical value) but may effect how others react to you--fellow hobbyists may be impressed; depending on your hobby, some other people may think you're weird. This is the primary game effect.

You hobby might justify some other skill at a -3 default. Any defaults should be worked out when the skill is initially described and taken by the character.

For example, Hobby (Knitting) means you can knit, which makes people go oooo! and ahhhh! when they get a beautiful hand-crafted sweater. You can also talk about yarn, etc. intelligently. This makes people who like knitted things go ooo! and ahhh! A generous GM might interpret this as providing a skill like like Connoisseur (Textiles) at a -3 default.

Professional Skill: You know some craft or profession, specifically in a manner that would let you earn a living at it. This is the primary game effect. It gives you something to do between adventures. However, it may also impress people, either members of your professional community or people who depend on you. There may be times when it will offer adventure-related abilities and/or provide some other more adventure-related skill at a -3 default. And it may give you an excuse to meet people, be in their houses, etc.

For example, Professional Skill (Exterminator) lets you...well, it lets you kill vermin. You can go into a building and get rid of anything from centipedes to raccoons. If someone's house was infested with vermin, they probably will be grateful and perhaps impressed at your prowess and maybe your bravery, too, depending on the vermin in question.

It probably is not too much of a stretch to say that both Traps and Poisons would default to this skill at -3.

You also know all kinds of little tidbits of knowledge that might be useful under rather bizarre circumstances, such as the fact one of the best weapons for handling wasps in an enclosed area is a shop-vac.

Expert Skill: You have an in-depth knowledge of a subject, in-depth enough that you could make a living at it (if there was a call for your expertise) and enough that even if you lack a practical skill you could answer questions in ways that would guide those with more practical abilities. Your skill usually involves some kind of advanced training, often drawing on several other fields, which is why it is not simply a Professional skill. Obviously, you may impress people, too, depending on circumstances. People are often impressed by experts, even if they will never need to take advantage of that particular expertise, often simply because of they are aware that it took brains and hard work to achieve that expertise. Some other skills will default at -3.

For example, someone with Expert (Hydrology) could make a living as an expert on ground water, flooding, etc. and could direct someone with Driving (Construction Equipment) who needed to dig an irrigation ditch or someone with Merchant, Strategy, etc. who needed to find out if a piece of land was suitable for certain uses.

By the way, anything that is a hobby can also be a Connoisseur specialty--if you take it as Connoisseur instead of Hobby, it means you know the subject well enough to buy and sell items with a +1 to Merchant skill. Hobby (Comic Books) means you can impress other comic book readers; Connoisseur (Comic Books) means you know which issues are valuable, how condition should affect price, etc...if you also had Merchant, you could make a living buying and selling comic books. Taking it as an Expert skill means you might have a Connoisseur skill as part of your expertise, if it would be appropriate.

Also, you never need Expert (Place)...that's Geography. For example, Geography (France) should let you answer all kinds of questions about resources, culture, industry, political boundaries, current affairs, exports, etc. related to France. History (France) probably defaults at -3.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd say not much. Despite the confusing text in Basic for Hobby, Professional and Expert skills, these are intended to be "Generic Easy, Average and Hard skills we forgot". They cover whatever the GM or author inventing the skill wants them too. Hidden Lore is similarly a user defined skill, distinguished from those three only by it's contents not being widely known, though in official products it seems to have undergone much the same shift as Occultism, which actually means almost exactly the same thing.

If information about Spirits is openly known in the setting, Expert Skill (Pneumatology) could, and probably should, cover the stuff Hidden Lore (Spirits) would in another setting.

Assuming a DF-style fantasy setting full of shamans, clerics, wizards, etc. who commonly deal with spirits (and ignoring for a second which skill is used in those templates), would Expert Skill (Pneumatology) or Hidden Lore (spirits) be more appropriate? It strikes me that dealings with spirits are common enough that Expert Skill would be more appropriate by far.

Secondly, Hidden Lore is an (IQ/A) skill, but Expert Skill is (IQ/H). If they are essentially the same thing, why the difference in difficulty?

[Faolyn]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Assuming a DF-style fantasy setting full of shamans, clerics, wizards, etc. who commonly deal with spirits (and ignoring for a second which skill is used in those templates), would Expert Skill (Pneumatology) or Hidden Lore (spirits) be more appropriate? It strikes me that dealings with spirits are common enough that Expert Skill would be more appropriate by far.

It depends on your gameworld. If dealings with spirits and the like actually are common and predictable enough, then Expert Skill would be indeed be the best. If there are still a lot of spirit secrets that count as Things Man Should Not Know, then Hidden Lore would still be useful. However, probably only a very few people would have Hidden Lore.

Originally Posted by Humabout

Secondly, Hidden Lore is an (IQ/A) skill, but Expert Skill is (IQ/H). If they are essentially the same thing, why the difference in difficulty?

My guess would be that it's because Expert Skill involves lots of learning, reading, and research, whereas Hidden Lore involves...observing spirits in their natural habitat, but not necessarily writing it down in ways that others can learn from. I have no idea if that makes any actual sense, though.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Assuming a DF-style fantasy setting full of shamans, clerics, wizards, etc. who commonly deal with spirits (and ignoring for a second which skill is used in those templates), would Expert Skill (Pneumatology) or Hidden Lore (spirits) be more appropriate? It strikes me that dealings with spirits are common enough that Expert Skill would be more appropriate by far.

Sure. In a DF-style setting, where spirits are as well-known or as common as, say, pandas or tigers, then the Expert Skill would be more appropriate.

Secondly, Hidden Lore is an (IQ/A) skill, but Expert Skill is (IQ/H). If they are essentially the same thing, why the difference in difficulty?

Huh. I think long ago, I decided that Hidden Lore should be hard, made the change in my head, and forgot that it was average in the RAW.
One possible explanation is that the practical effects one gets out of Hidden Lore are less abstract and easier to comprehend. After all, if all you need to know is to make sure you summon the thing inside a pentegram, but not why, that's easier.

If it bugs you, and you're running a high-magic or magic as technology game where spirits are so common that they might be encountered by everyday people (such as the demons that run the gadgets on Discworld), then dealing with them might reach the level of an IQ/A Professional Skill, somewhat analogous to training horses.

[Humabout]

Thanks for the feedback. My setting is rife with spirits, so I'm definitely leaning toward Pneumatology. I'll probably completely disclude Hidden Lore (Spirits), as well as its other varieties, too. It feels weird, though, since Hidden Lore is such a nice name....

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

...
Huh. I think long ago, I decided that Hidden Lore should be hard, made the change in my head, and forgot that it was average in the RAW.
...

Honestly how hard a hidden lore is could vary. It's the hidden part that makes it valuable, in my opinion.

The 500 rules on how to deal with a Ferengi would be easy at worst, but still be hidden lore if Ferengi are only known by a few government officials.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Honestly how hard a hidden lore is could vary. It's the hidden part that makes it valuable, in my opinion.

The 500 rules on how to deal with a Ferengi would be easy at worst, but still be hidden lore if Ferengi are only known by a few government officials.

That's a valid point, but part of what makes Hidden Lore hard for me is the difficulty of obtaining reliable information. If only fifty people in the government have ever seen or met a Ferengi, and they didn't bother to write clear, comprehensive scientific papers, it becomes very difficult for anyone to learn anything reliable about them. You get questions like, "The external ears seem to be important, but why?" and not having anyone who can answer the question authoritatively to ask. So you have to fill in the multitude of blanks with inferences, speculation, and wild guessing.

And that's not even considering that, for some games, the topics covered by Hidden Lore are about things so outside the human experience that they make no sense, appear inconsistent or illogical, or are only ever explicable in terms of metaphors, allegories, symbolism, or cryptic nonsense.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Honestly how hard a hidden lore is could vary.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Right. A character would pick up Expert Skill: Pneumatology through a course of study in specialized anthropology, literature, folklore, and comparative religion. Probably Jungian and Campbellian psychology, too.

I agree with that example in the sense of that Jungian doctrine and such is easily available, not fitting with anything hidden. But on the other hand, this interpretation of the skill could, in part, "step on the toes" of the GURPS Anthropology skill. Another consideration is that such skill could not be 100% reliable, since in many cases the Anthropologist actually doesn't understand many of the things that he intends to explain, and the Hidden aspects usually will remain unavailable to him, making things even more uncertain and/or inaccurate —both because the lack of data and due to the lack of understanding of the available data.

Something like this is a GM's choice, and it can be a bit tricky to handle since the player paid points for such skill/s.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

it's about human beliefs, myths, and philosophy.

According to the doctrines and opinions of authors like Jung and followers of him, like Campbell.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

And that's not even considering that, for some games, the topics covered by Hidden Lore are about things so outside the human experience that they make no sense, appear inconsistent or illogical, or are only ever explicable in terms of metaphors, allegories, symbolism, or cryptic nonsense.

Also, realistically part of what you are saying here should be applicable to other GURPS skills as well, like Religious Ritual and Theology. A part of these things is more or less public knowledge —or at least they aren't actively hidden— but another part was always hidden from profane eyes, only available to a subset of people with special qualifications and/or aspirations. (According to the current status of ancient wisdoms and "classical religions", this is mostly no longer applicable, since their deep dimensions of knowledge have been destroyed and lost, even falsified).

A problem with GURPS Theology skill is that it encompasses things that aren't actually reducible to a religious point of view (the same happens with the Religious Ritual skill), like Taoism and reserved facets inside things that undoubtedly are religions, like the case of taṣawwuf inside Islam, or Kabbalah inside Judaism.

Since these things aren't isolated disciplines, for portraying an actual Taoist knowledge, or Hinduist, even Buddhist or regarding Islamic tasawwuf . . . per the current Basic Set's rules is needed to heap the current Basic Set's skills: Occultism, Theology, Religious Ritual, Hidden Lore —and partly even Thaumatology and Expert Skills such as: Natural Phylosophy, Thanatology . . . Besides, names like "occultism" or "theology" don't fit well in many cases (they are OK in certain contexts, particularly modern ones, like Occultism for paranormal investigators, occultist organizations like the Golden Dawn, Blavatskian Teosophism and its many derivations; and Theology for religious characters with a solid but limited understanding of the contents of a religious revelation), the former term because its specific modern connotations, and the later because it's not always about the religious and mostly "monotheistic" notion of God, or at least there is not a limit placed at such ontological level. Thus, these things should be modeled or handled in a different way, but it's not easy to do: it could require the addition of new skills to the Basic Set, likely something along the lines of "Esotericism (IQ/Very Hard)" —maybe it could be a sort of non necessarily cinematic wildcard skill—, and likely differentiating between such skill/s possessed by a scholar character and the same skill/s possessed by an actual practitioneer/knower character (rarely it's the same thing, and such differentiation still makes sense with the current skills in GURPS Basic Set already mentioned here): I handle such distinction by making some of the following advantages mandatory for the later case: Power Investiture, True Faith, Blessed along with disadvantages like Pact, Disciplines of Faith —even if in many cases it's not about faith, in the sense of belief or personal conviction. An additional issue is that some GURPS Theology specializations too easily can be mistaken for specializations in the GURPS Philosophy skill, which isn't suitable either: for instance, many people regards things like Taoism as a Philosophy or as a Religion, but it is none of both, since a dialectical expression not always demonstrates that it is the case of a philosophy, and the involvement of the supernatural, by itself, neither defines a discipline as religious —western classifications don't work well for things beyond the scope of what has been produced by the western thought.

(It goes without saying that a GURPS 4e Religion book would be a good opportunity for addressing issues like these, but it would be very hard to write due to its many pitfalls caused by the current understanding of these subjects.)

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

But on the other hand, this interpretation of the skill could, in part, "step on the toes" of the GURPS Anthropology skill.

Sure. Much in the same way that the already canonical GURPS expert skill: hydrology "steps on the toes" of the Physics skill, among other. What helps define expert skills for me is that they cross many GURPS skills. So Expert skill (Pneumatology) combines aspects of Anthropology, Psychology, Theology, Literature, Occultism, and History, but only so far as each of those skills concerns spirits.

Another consideration is that such skill could not be 100% reliable, since in many cases the Anthropologist actually doesn't understand many of the things that he intends to explain,

Well, that's a little more complex. An anthropologist might be able to explain how the practice of Voudoun fits into the larger picture of Haitian culture, without purporting to explain how it works. ES: Pneumotology might be able to explain in theory what rituals an Oungon uses summons spirits, and how that differs from the Enochian practice, but not down to the nuts and bolts details.

Also, realistically part of what you are saying here should be applicable to other GURPS skills as well, like Religious Ritual and Theology. A part of these things is more or less public knowledge —or at least they aren't actively hidden— but another part was always hidden from profane eyes, only available to a subset of people with special qualifications and/or aspirations. (According to the current status of ancient wisdoms and "classical religions", this is mostly no longer applicable, since their deep dimensions of knowledge have been destroyed and lost, even falsified).

Sure. No argument from me, here.

A problem with GURPS Theology skill is that it encompasses things that aren't actually reducible to a religious point of view (the same happens with the Religious Ritual skill), like Taoism and reserved facets inside things that undoubtedly are religions, like the case of taṣawwuf inside Islam, or Kabbalah inside Judaism.[/QUOTE]

Sure. But in GURPS, that's largely the difference between Theology and whatever skills you're using for your magic/powers/divine influence. Lets postulate a game world where it's actually possible to build a golem. Someone with Theology (Judaic) might be able to describe in rough terms how that's supposed to happen. But it takes someone with the various Enchantment school spells, Ritual path skill, or whatever the GM decides is necessary to actually perform the ritual and create a golem.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Sure. Much in the same way that the already canonical GURPS expert skill: hydrology "steps on the toes" of the Physics skill, among other. What helps define expert skills for me is that they cross many GURPS skills. (. . .)

Right, I agree: skills overlapping others is not a problem per se. It happens and it's part of the game mechanics. However I wanted to point at something with what I said.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Sure. But in GURPS, that's largely the difference between Theology and whatever skills you're using for your magic/powers/divine influence.

Actually, I am not speaking about that. Let me explain myself:

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Lets postulate a game world where it's actually possible to build a golem. Someone with Theology (Judaic) might be able to describe in rough terms how that's supposed to happen. But it takes someone with the various Enchantment school spells, Ritual path skill, or whatever the GM decides is necessary to actually perform the ritual and create a golem.

That is the thing: the facet I am speaking of, isn't about magic or powers or any production of phenomena, like that golem (1) —in most cases such things, along with "psychic powers" are actively discarded and never are the focus, except in the case of corrupt practices or mistaken apprentices and practitioners.

Rather, what I was talking about is the attainment or the realization of an spiritual station —by its own nature, beyond time and space, and thus, beyond phenomena happening in the order of action (2)—, a goal unreachable by means of religion or philosophy, both regarded as profane (even if theology is and was regarded as pertaining to a different order than philosophy): moreover, there were many different, partial degrees before the actual attainment of such station —sometimes called "Enlightenment" as well—, which was reflected in the doctrines of "spiritual hierarchies" inside these contexts (there are known examples in Islamic tassawuf, in Masonry, with Lodges and Rites having for instance 33 degrees or "levels of spiritual achievement"), hierarchies that not always were reflected into the external society, not even in religious institutions (3). Most often than not, all this is and was simply secret, unavailable for outsiders. Thus, what GURPS skill could portray that spiritual knowledge-attainment? I can't find any . . . Part of it could be an advantage —however I see the "advantage treatment" as more applicable to the spiritual station, even if it's partial—, but since it covers many things proper of a skill —for instance, the theoretical part that is applicable for the own achievement, for teaching others and for many other situations— it should be a skill before all else.

On the other hand, things like blessings/power investiture, etc . . . definitely are and were required, but bestowing them to the apprentice by means of a rite isn't considered magic nor a magical phenomenon, and strictly speaking it can't be called phenomenon . . . it's a completely different thing —it is not psychology, either; things like these, along with many others, aren't understood at all by Comparative Religion nor Anthropology.

Of course I understand that there are different ways of producing magical effects according the GURPS rules, but that wasn't my point since the perspective I'm talking about is focused in spiritual knowledge and attainment of wisdom, a realization of the "divine mysteries" or "universal principles" beyond the human reasoning —but not beyond the intellect, which in itself isn't regarded as human. What I mean is that Kabbalah, for instance, isn't official "religious Judaism", but a different thing: it's linked to Judaism, but it's not religious Judaism. The same happens with tassawuf regarding Islam. To assimilate "spiritual realization" (I don't like this expression, but . . .) with "religion" is an error (4).

There is a huge lack of accuracy both in most academic perspectives/resources and in fiction, which usually turns an enlightened sage into a "mere" sorcerer with magical powers, which is wrong because in this way, the spiritual dimension is ignored or falsified, substituted by sorcery: in many cases, the wielder of powers was the antithesis of the sage. So, assimilating "spiritual realization" with "magic" is another error as well.

When I said:

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Since these things aren't isolated disciplines, for portraying an actual Taoist knowledge, or Hinduist, even Buddhist or regarding Islamic tasawwuf . . . per the current Basic Set's rules is needed to heap the current Basic Set's skills: Occultism, Theology, Religious Ritual, Hidden Lore —and partly even Thaumatology and Expert Skills such as: Natural Phylosophy, Thanatology . . .

. . . my point wasn't at all about a "magical skill", but rather that the missing skill can't be found in the current GURPS list of skills, and it would be needed to gather a number of them for trying to offer at least an indirect hint of it. The mention of the skill Thaumatology was not intended to be understood as "magic", but as the knowledge of how "blessings" work: actually, it should be something joining both Religious Ritual and Thaumatology, but transcending both perspectives: religion and magic. Other of the reasons for saying what I said is that the skill that I'm searching here should offer a default to other skills like the aforementioned ones, since it's an ample, synthetic knowledge that knows little of separated, unconnected specializations (5).

Since we GURPSers ask for accuracy regarding bow and firearms damage, edge protection for armor rules, subtleties more or less covered in books like Social Engineering or Tactical Shooting and lots of details that make a lot of sense for some people —while others are fine avoiding their use—, I see a point in asking for better treatment of an aspect that certainly would be more than helpful for modeling a number of GURPS characters. And if after all there are people wanting to model Hermetic sages or Buddhist monks as characters wielding magic and/or psychic powers, of course it would be possible to do, but it would be a choice and not the norm.

Another instance of the perspective that I'm trying to clarify here would be the (Ancient, Operative) Masonic doctrine, that still survives in some Obediences, Rites and Lodges: Masonry —however I'm avoiding here its modernist, widespread acceptation— is an spiritual path, but it's not a religious one; it is not a theological discipline, and it is not a philosophy, even if its members can have a good level in such skills (and it's not about magic, nor about psychology: these things owes absolutely nothing to psychoanalysis, Freudian, Jungian or any other variation). This dimension is the same that the proper of Jewish Kabbalah, Islamic tassawuf, Hindu Shaivism . . . , but I'm mentioning Masonry (a "spiritual path" based on crafts) because seemingly there are some difficulties in differentiating between the spirituality proper of "mysteries" (gnosis) and "mere" religion (faith); and Theology per se derives from a religious perspective, not being applicable beyond it's point of view. Thus, what I mean is: what would be the GURPS skill covering that? For answering to this question, is necessary to understand, at least in theory, what is the dimension what I'm pointing to with these clarifications.

-

(1) According to the example you are mentioning, all things related to the golem pertained to the field of Jewish Kabbalah, which is a quite complex issue; I'm saying this because Kabbalah can't be assimilated to Jewish Theology: it's a different thing.
. . .(By the way, Gustav Meyrink's 1914 novel Der Golem is more related to modern occultism than to actual Jewish Kabbalah, and in any case the golem is a complex theme that is not worth to expand here.)

(2) Occasionally, there was in order to make miracles and such things, but it was the exception.

(3) Between other things, I suggested at least brief mentions to these contexts —limited to their social aspects—, in the Social Engineering playtest, by various means, including showing the GURPS Cabal model of Degrees/Ranks for a secret society, since we have a sort of example with the minisociety of "a mage's guild" in Social Engineering p.14, which in part was modeled after craft-based societies and guilds like Masonry [there are the first degrees of apprentice (Rank 0), journeymen (Rank 1) and Master (Rank 3+)], although I repeat that the point that I'm trying to make isn't about magic.

(4) The study of Theology (Islam) was forbbiden to Shaik Ahmad al-Alawi (1869–1934) by his own spiritual master because that wasn't the point of tassawuf, and it was regarded as a waste of time, a distraction.

(5) On the other hand, if one wants it's possible to extend the applicability of that "unknown skill" for relating it to some sort of Magic-Hidden Lore specialities-Expert Skills, as well, but that would be a very secondary application of these kind of knowledges, that in themselves aren't intended to work in such sense. (The development of these secondary applications seriously endangers the attainment of any spiritual station. When the "supreme spiritual station" is achieved, there is no danger henceforth, however.)