Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

1) With GURPS Technical Grappling, do you need Armed Grapple (Garrote) to grapple with a garrote?

If you have Garrote, you have AG(Garrote), but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

I didn't consider garrotting specifically when I wrote it. I do say you get extra CP when using a flexible weapon as a grappling aid (+1 per die, from memory, but could be wrong).

On the flip side, as you note:

As it is an extremely narrow skill already, I would personally consider it odd to add another mandatory -2 penalty to the use of the Garrote. On the plus side, for those who are enamored of consistency, that would explain the -5 penalty inherent in the Garrote skill, for targeting the Neck. It's -3 for targeting the neck with a grappling attack and -2 for Armed Grapple (Garrote).

All the same, I'd prefer to avoid the technique Armed Grapple (Garrote), as it is already a weapon that doesn't teach strikes. It should perform Armed Grapples by default, at full skill.

I'd probably rule that no, you don't have to buy up from -2 for Armed Grapple (that is, Garotte is a grappling skill), and I'd also say it's on the Fast progression, as a dedicated grappling skill.

I WOULD keep the -3 for target location, which you'd need to buy off.

2) Do you need the Garrote skill to use a flexible weapon as a grappling aid (+1/die CP) or can you simply use your grappling skill, with a familiarity penalty if you haven't trained to use grappling aids?

Yes. Getting the bonus is because you have an easy way to keep the pressure on; it's inherent to "grappling with a flexible weapon" I think.

[Icelander]

My PC, Mazkenzie Chase Taylor, elected to go with Skill Adaptation (Garrote Armed Grapple defaults to Wrestling). That way, he doesn't need a special skill just to achieve the initial grapple before he can start using Wrestling. He can just roll against Wrestling from the start.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Historically, garroting and just garroting has been taught to and perfected by people who were neither wrestlers nor practitioners of kusarijutsu . . . so however "unbalanced" it might seem to some, it's justifiably its own DX/E skill in GURPS. Those who don't like spending points on a one-trick skill don't have to learn it. ;)

One issue here is GURPS not having a Brawling-equivalent for grappling (Wrestling, Sumo Wrestling, and Judo each have their own baggage associated that make them more akin to Boxing or Karate). There's very little qualitative difference between someone using their DX default for striking and having Brawling at DX, but there is a qualitative difference between someone using their DX default for grappling and having Wrestling (or Sumo Wrestling, or Judo) at DX. Hence, why we can state there have been people skilled with the garrote who lack Wrestling (etc), making it its own skill.

With a Brawling-equivalent, DX/E grappling skill (my Combat Skills Overhaul just called it the generic Grappling), it becomes easier to justify garrote as a Technique - those skilled garroteers (or whatever you'd call them) didn't have a dedicated Garrote DX+4 skill, they just had [1] in Grappling and [5] in the Garrote Technique. Really dedicated ones might have even grabbed Technique Mastery to boost Garrote further.

Of course, it's not like you really need a very high level of Garrote (regardless of if it's a skill or Technique) to start with - with it at DX, you're presumably (with the halved hit location penalties for grappling) at a net DX+5 to initiate one (-3 for Neck, +4 for Telegraphic Attack, +4 for All Out Attack) against at best Parry -1, and likely Parry -5 (for surprise). Once it's initiated, your foe is at -3 (or -5 if using raw strength instead of skill) to break free, and is at -4 from being grappled for just about everything else. It gets worse with Technical Grappling, as you can make use of your foe's likely Surprise to pile on the CP early, then just do some nominal damage (to start strangling) and keep hold until the target passes out. It's harder against foes with Combat Reflexes, or who otherwise are less susceptible to ending up Surprised, but that's when you send in someone with it at greater than DX and/or bring friends to help you restrain the target (as was done to kill Luca Brasi in The Godfather). The real skills for the character are those that let them get the target alone without anyone noticing their ambitions, be that with Stealth, Holdout, Fast-Talk, Savoire-Faire, Sex Appeal, or whatever.

Alternatively, Garrote with no penalty for targeting the neck could be justified as a DX/A skill. Assuming -3 is the correct penalty there (due to being a grappling skill), Targeted Attack (Garrote/Neck), and Technique Mastery (same) would completely negate it for a cost of [5], which is so close to the general [4] difference between Easy and Average you could be justified in doing it that way.

Originally Posted by Icelander

My PC, Mazkenzie Chase Taylor, elected to go with Skill Adaptation (Garrote Armed Grapple defaults to Wrestling). That way, he doesn't need a special skill just to achieve the initial grapple before he can start using Wrestling. He can just roll against Wrestling from the start.

I'd allow it (if I didn't make it the default), but "Skill X instead uses Skill Y" might be a bit of a stretch for that Perk. Garrote Armed Grapple is all Garrote does, after all.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd allow it (if I didn't make it the default), but "Skill X instead uses Skill Y" might be a bit of a stretch for that Perk. Garrote Armed Grapple is all Garrote does, after all.

Yeah, functionally, it's pretty much just that, which is why the skill is a bit silly.

Note, however, that under GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling, Garrote skill can also be used to perform any technique that allows armed use, so if you plan to grapple exclusively with a flexible weapon, taking Garrote skill is a cheaper way than Wrestling to do it well. If we go by what DouglasCole suggested above, Garrote is a DX/Easy grappling skill with a Fast Progression for training bonus purposes, which has Armed Grapple at skill by default.

So Skill Adaptation (Garrote Armed Grapple defaults to Wrestling) is not replacing Garrote skill as much as it serves to prevent a character who already, because of Wrestling, has the skill to do nearly everything that Garrote skill does, from having to take it to get the only technique from Garrote he will use that doesn't also fall under Wrestling.

[Lord Azagthoth]

Garrote's are excellent at catching wrists and then make a throw. The victim doesn't pull back or otherwise resists because he's afraid of losing his hand.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth

Garrote's are excellent at catching wrists and then make a throw. The victim doesn't pull back or otherwise resists because he's afraid of losing his hand.

Karate Parry + Fast-Draw (Flexible)* + [Wrestling] Garrotte Armed Grapple/Arm + Arm Lock also worked very well in play.

Turned a crazy guard at a mental institution from belligerent to cooperative right quick.

*To grab a clip-on tie that my PC had already surreptiously removed from his neck and prepared for use in his left hand, and ready it to use as a grappling aid with both hands.