Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I would probably make this a Brawling technique to apply the Garotte, and note that properly garotting someone counts as a successful Grapple attempt, requiring use of DX, Wrestling, or Judo to keep control of the opponent.

Why not just DX, Wrestling or Judo for both? It is a Grapple, after all.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Most things like brass knuckes or improvised weapons wind up under Brawling (or they used to).

Improvised striking weapons, yes.

Personally, I'd put improvised grappling weapons under Wrestling.

It makes sense to me.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by thrash

Out of curiousity, since we've got you on the subject:

Couldn't Garotte skill be used for a two-handed binding attack with a flexible weapon on any part of the body? I know it's not written that way, but what skill would you use for:

* a cop who can cuff his captures on the fly?

* an attempt to remove a (cyber-)limb with a loop of monowire?

* a super-Doc, who can put tourniquets on uncooperative (e.g., animal or Berserk) victims?

* an ogre who cuts his victims in half with a length of chain or cable wrapped around their waists?

That would make it the "melee" counterpart to Lariat skill.

Is there still a "Binding" skill or power?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Why not just DX, Wrestling or Judo for both? It is a Grapple, after all.


Improvised striking weapons, yes.

Personally, I'd put improvised grappling weapons under Wrestling.

It makes sense to me.

Recently one of the Big Dogs in the martial art I practice gave a seminar on using a belt or sash or rope for binding attacks. We train in both grappling and striking, but the motions used to wrap up a cord around a punch, kick, push someone back with a two-handed move and snap, or capture the throat seemed much more based on striking principles.

Here's how I'd probably try and justify it: wrestling and grappling both involve core body pressure and control to move around on the ground and stand-up, but most of the force is actually provided by applying one's hips and core directly on the target. Even moves that involve the limbs, like an inside shoulder lock or arm bar, have more to do with whole-body motion and control. Distance is important, but position more so.

For striking, you have to know your distances more. Precision with hands and feet is critical. Put hands here for a block, reach this far and you can hit with a punch, any farther and you have to step, farther than that and you're off balance. Of course, if you leave your hips and core behind, you're not really doing it right.

Still, the motions for applying with the rope, belt, or sash felt much more akin to striking-based skills to me. This puts them, for me, into the core skills of DX, Brawling, and Karate. Now, once that is applied, you're applying leverage through a weapon instead of your hands, but the control of the person seems more like joint manipulation and grappling.

I'd have to read the exact description of Wrestling (GURPS skill). When I think of it, and my mental model, is Wrestling is a lot of joint manipulation, strength, weight, and leverage but without a lot of the throwing and takedown stuff. Judo (GURPS skill) is all of that but more emphasis on throwing and takedowns. Of course, in both of these grappling emphases, you have to reach out and nab your guy in order to proceed, and that involves a level of limb control that should impart some ability to reach out and wrap something around someone.

Perhaps allow a default on the order of -4 to -6 to DX, Brawling, Karate, Wrestling, or Judo (sumo and boxing make no sense to me here, agree?). Then, on top of that, you still have to apply the hit location penatly for the actual strike.

So Garotte becomes the technique of achieving successful binding attack, using any trainable HTH combat skill. I'd make it a hard technique, making (say) a seven point investment required to attack using a binding attack at full skill (and then you still get the -5 for the neck...).

The coordination required to reach out and strike or grab your opponent should carry through to this action. In the one case, it's precise control over distance and limb location for strikes. In the other, it's proper entry and control techniques for grabbing initially. Having Karate-20 and then havnig to roll vs DX-6, Wresting-6, or Judo-6 to do a binding attack seems wrong; equally wrong would be being a Judo master and not having the coordination to reach out and wrap a rope around a neck because it's a striking based skill (DX, Brawl, Karate).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Recently one of the Big Dogs in the martial art I practice gave a seminar on using a belt or sash or rope for binding attacks. We train in both grappling and striking, but the motions used to wrap up a cord around a punch, kick, push someone back with a two-handed move and snap, or capture the throat seemed much more based on striking principles.

Here's how I'd probably try and justify it: wrestling and grappling both involve core body pressure and control to move around on the ground and stand-up, but most of the force is actually provided by applying one's hips and core directly on the target. Even moves that involve the limbs, like an inside shoulder lock or arm bar, have more to do with whole-body motion and control. Distance is important, but position more so.

For striking, you have to know your distances more. Precision with hands and feet is critical. Put hands here for a block, reach this far and you can hit with a punch, any farther and you have to step, farther than that and you're off balance. Of course, if you leave your hips and core behind, you're not really doing it right.

Still, the motions for applying with the rope, belt, or sash felt much more akin to striking-based skills to me. This puts them, for me, into the core skills of DX, Brawling, and Karate. Now, once that is applied, you're applying leverage through a weapon instead of your hands, but the control of the person seems more like joint manipulation and grappling.

I'd have to read the exact description of Wrestling (GURPS skill). When I think of it, and my mental model, is Wrestling is a lot of joint manipulation, strength, weight, and leverage but without a lot of the throwing and takedown stuff. Judo (GURPS skill) is all of that but more emphasis on throwing and takedowns. Of course, in both of these grappling emphases, you have to reach out and nab your guy in order to proceed, and that involves a level of limb control that should impart some ability to reach out and wrap something around someone.

Your right, of course, but GURPS (unfortunately) doesn't distinguish HTH techniques enough to allow us to do this well.

I'd say that if grabbing a neck is a Wrestling move, then wrapping something around the neck should be a Wrestling move as well. Others may differ, of course, but that's the way it seems consistent to me.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Perhaps allow a default on the order of -4 to -6 to DX, Brawling, Karate, Wrestling, or Judo (sumo and boxing make no sense to me here, agree?). Then, on top of that, you still have to apply the hit location penatly for the actual strike.

I agree that we should leave out Sumo and Boxing. ;)

Techniques that are aimed at specific parts of the body do not suffer an extra hit location penalty. If we are aiming for a general binding technique, I don't think it should be more than -4. That fits current rules, in that Garotte is currently a DX/Easy skill.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So Garotte becomes the technique of achieving successful binding attack, using any trainable HTH combat skill. I'd make it a hard technique, making (say) a seven point investment required to attack using a binding attack at full skill (and then you still get the -5 for the neck...).

I think that

Binding (Hard)
Defaults to DX-4, Brawling-4, Karate-4, Judo-4 or Wrestling-4; must specialise;
Cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

This is the technique of wrapping rope, handcuffs, wire or similar items around a limb, neck or torso in melee. It takes normal grappling hit location penalties. If the intention is to harm the person attacked, use the Garotte damage and description.

I like it fine like this.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The coordination required to reach out and strike or grab your opponent should carry through to this action. In the one case, it's precise control over distance and limb location for strikes. In the other, it's proper entry and control techniques for grabbing initially. Having Karate-20 and then havnig to roll vs DX-6, Wresting-6, or Judo-6 to do a binding attack seems wrong; equally wrong would be being a Judo master and not having the coordination to reach out and wrap a rope around a neck because it's a striking based skill (DX, Brawl, Karate).

But that's an argument for all weapon and non-weapon combat skills should have some level of cross-default, isn't it?

I completely agree, incidentally, but that would be a house rule, not GURPS standard, and the subject of another thread.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But that's an argument for all weapon and non-weapon combat skills should have some level of cross-default, isn't it?

I completely agree, incidentally, but that would be a house rule, not GURPS standard, and the subject of another thread.

MumblemumbleProbablymumble.

Note that one of the things I've personally observed is that my fellow martial arts students picked up Kumdo[1] much, much faster than my non-trained friend who just wanted to learn. We all started at the same time, but the balance, timing, etc all really DO matter.

Perhaps that's just DX traning...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

MumblemumbleProbablymumble.

Note that one of the things I've personally observed is that my fellow martial arts students picked up Kumdo[1] much, much faster than my non-trained friend who just wanted to learn. We all started at the same time, but the balance, timing, etc all really DO matter.

I calculate all unarmed and armed defaults from the highest combat skill, weapon skill or unarmed. If the highest skill is a DX/H skill, I use normal defaults, if it is a DX/A skill, I use default-1 and if it is DX/E I use default-2.

This doesn't help anyone but experts, but then, experts should be able to pick up different weapons and at least defend themselves adequately.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Perhaps that's just DX traning...

I'd say that a part of it is DX training, a part of it is familitarity with Savoir-Faire (Dojo) and a part of it is having done this before and being quicker to see what each exercise is supposed to do for you.

IRL, learning speed is very individualised and depends greatly on what skill, how people are motivated and so forth; and the 200 hours is a guideline and average, not an absolute.

[William]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I think that

Binding (Hard)
Defaults to DX-4, Brawling-4, Karate-4, Judo-4 or Wrestling-4; must specialise;
Cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

This is the technique of wrapping rope, handcuffs, wire or similar items around a limb, neck or torso in melee. It takes normal grappling hit location penalties. If the intention is to harm the person attacked, use the Garotte damage and description.

I like it fine like this.

3e GURPS Cops (a book which has been worth every penny I paid for it) has a Handcuffing technique which is described very much in this fashion, indeed as a limited version of Binding from 3e: it is Average, defaults to DX-2, Judo-1, or Wrestling-2, and helps quickly place handcuffs on a struggling suspect.

I don't have 3e Martial Arts, but Binding sounds intriguing, as does this real-world art of using a cord or rope to toss enemies around. DouglasCole, have you a name for this technique, or the equipment used, or anything similar I could use to find out some things about it? I always love having nonlethal but combat-effective options for my characters. :^)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by William

3e GURPS Cops (a book which has been worth every penny I paid for it) has a Handcuffing technique which is described very much in this fashion, indeed as a limited version of Binding from 3e: it is Average, defaults to DX-2, Judo-1, or Wrestling-2, and helps quickly place handcuffs on a struggling suspect.

I'd say that Handcuffing could be used as it is, easily enough. It's just limited in scope, so the Binding Technique might be a better buy, if you mean to use anything but handcuffs.

Originally Posted by William

I don't have 3e Martial Arts, but Binding sounds intriguing, as does this real-world art of using a cord or rope to toss enemies around. DouglasCole, have you a name for this technique, or the equipment used, or anything similar I could use to find out some things about it? I always love having nonlethal but combat-effective options for my characters. :^)

I haven't heard of many real world arts which use ropes to toss people around, but I know that some varieties of Systema teach the use of cords or ropes as improvised weapons, for which this Technique would be ideal.

A character in a modern, covert ops campaign that I run is dedicated to achieving lethal mastery with as many items of office apparel as possible. He can kill people with electrical cords, computer screens, pens, etc.

[Adina]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Note that one of the things I've personally observed is that my fellow martial arts students picked up Kumdo[1] much, much faster than my non-trained friend who just wanted to learn. We all started at the same time, but the balance, timing, etc all really DO matter.

Perhaps that's just DX traning...

Probably DX training.

When my wife and I took TKD we learned noticeably faster than the rest of the class (particularly forms). We had no previous martial arts experience but have been dancing for years, so balance, footwork, movement, etc were not new to us.

JeffM

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by jmurrell

Probably DX training.

When my wife and I took TKD we learned noticeably faster than the rest of the class (particularly forms). We had no previous martial arts experience but have been dancing for years, so balance, footwork, movement, etc were not new to us.

JeffM

Incorporating a thought from a different thread, perhaps my friend was basically doing kumdo with no default and hadn't spent her point yet. Our martial arts training did two things: (a) gave us DX training in the type of movement we'd be doing in kumdo, and (b) allowed us to have a default to begin with.