Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Isn't there a max +3 bonus for Evaluate?

Yep. But you can still Evaluate for any length of time. The bonus might stop at +3, but why not say you're taking Evaluate?

Originally Posted by Icelander

And related, would it be legal to Evaluate (described as sizing up the neck of your opponent and planning where to put your knife) and then make a AoA Double, Grappling attack and Brawling strike for which you don't use an Evaluate bonus, saving it for the stab in the next round.

You can't save an Evaluate bonus. It has to come on your first attack.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But in fairness, wouldn't controlling the enemy and staying in the right position be Wrestling?

Only if your local wrestling instructor teaches you to wrestle with rope. The problem is that you're exerting most of the force via a piece of flexible rope or wire, which is almost nothing like using your arms and legs.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Only if your local wrestling instructor teaches you to wrestle with rope. The problem is that you're exerting most of the force via a piece of flexible rope or wire, which is almost nothing like using your arms and legs.

Hmmm...

If wrestling is learned in the army, the local wrestling instructor does teach that. ;)

And a default of -6 does cover the difference pretty well.

Not that I'd bother to remove the Garotte skill and replace it with a Technique. I've never had a player use a Garotte and probably never will.

It takes an awfully long time to strangle someone, it's not as quiet as people imagine and nothing stops the enemy from firing a shot or throwing down something heavy while he struggles.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But in fairness, wouldn't controlling the enemy and staying in the right position be Wrestling?

I could see an argument for Garotte being a Hard Technique defaulting to Wrestling-6. That would make it relatively expensive to learn, but still make veteran wrestlers better at it than just anyone.

I would probably make this a Brawling technique to apply the Garotte, and note that properly garotting someone counts as a successful Grapple attempt, requiring use of DX, Wrestling, or Judo to keep control of the opponent.

Most things like brass knuckes or improvised weapons wind up under Brawling (or they used to).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Not that I'd bother to remove the Garotte skill and replace it with a Technique. I've never had a player use a Garotte and probably never will.

It takes an awfully long time to strangle someone, it's not as quiet as people imagine and nothing stops the enemy from firing a shot or throwing down something heavy while he struggles.

Well, the mental stun, for one. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth the price. E.g. when playing Hitman, I only use the garrote when I need to pass through metal detectors, or don't want bloodstains. I'm still curious why he can't buy a ceramic knife...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yep. But you can still Evaluate for any length of time. The bonus might stop at +3, but why not say you're taking Evaluate?

True.

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can't save an Evaluate bonus. It has to come on your first attack.

For reasons of simplicity, balance and playability or for realistic reasons?

Because many (if not most) sentry removal techniques rely on carefully planning a stab with a blade, but before that stab, the attacker grabs the sentry and makes a secondary attack which is meant only to stun and distract.

[Kromm]

An All-Out Attack (Double) -- grab & stab* -- gets the Evaluate bonus on both attacks. Evaluate specifically allows All-Out Attack to get its bonus.

--

* Doing it right requires "six-pack abs": Grab, stab, put him on a slab. Nab before you jab so he can't blab. I prefer the "four angles" of setting traps, though (dangle, tangle, mangle, and strangle).

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Kromm

* Doing it right requires "six-pack abs": Grab, stab, put him on a slab. Nab before you jab so he can't blab. I prefer the "four angles" of setting traps, though (dangle, tangle, mangle, and strangle).

Alright. Someone hold Kromm down. We need to have a pun-ectomy on him stat!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

An All-Out Attack (Double) -- grab & stab* -- gets the Evaluate bonus on both attacks. Evaluate specifically allows All-Out Attack to get its bonus.

Okay, that's nice, and it is something I'd wondered about. Last time it came up in a game, I allowed it without checking the book, but I wasn't sure if it was rules-legal.

But in GURPS terms, I'm pretty sure that the attack would be AoA (Double) -- grab & pummel or stab kidney* -- followed by the next round AoA (Accurate) -- stab neck --.

The neck stab is the real attack. The pummel or kidney stab is just supposed to distract and set up for the real attack, but if the player tries to do this in GURPS, he's essentially penalised for it.



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Originally Posted by Kromm

* Doing it right requires "six-pack abs": Grab, stab, put him on a slab. Nab before you jab so he can't blab. I prefer the "four angles" of setting traps, though (dangle, tangle, mangle, and strangle).

* Yeah, I know, my version ruins the rhythm and rhyme completely. ;)

Good one, though. ;)

[thrash]

Out of curiousity, since we've got you on the subject:

Couldn't Garotte skill be used for a two-handed binding attack with a flexible weapon on any part of the body? I know it's not written that way, but what skill would you use for:

* a cop who can cuff his captures on the fly?

* an attempt to remove a (cyber-)limb with a loop of monowire?

* a super-Doc, who can put tourniquets on uncooperative (e.g., animal or Berserk) victims?

* an ogre who cuts his victims in half with a length of chain or cable wrapped around their waists?

That would make it the "melee" counterpart to Lariat skill.