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Old 02-22-2019, 02:07 AM   #31
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The vast majority of billionaires have personal assets much less than their investment pools. If you want though, think of the investment fund as bonds rather than stocks, with their value being heavily discounted if they are sold.
What do you think 'personal assets' means?

In GURPS, Wealth gives characters a certain amount of starting resources. Most rich characters will be settled and abstract away 80% of these.

If a character has to go on the run, the total value of everything he owns if he sold it is equal to his starting money. This includes real estate and investments, if any. Note that bonds that yield a steady income will realistically be no harder to sell than any other possession of a character if he suddenly needs to liquidate everything.

Independent Income does not carry with it ownership of more valuable possessions than a character has with Wealth. The trait just gives what you pay points for, i.e. the income.

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
Bonds aren't generally heavily discounted if sold though. Depends on exactly what we're talking about but IIRC on the secondary/open market their price will usually fluctuate according to their issued interest rate vs. the interest rate paid by similar bonds on the primary market.
Just so.
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Old 02-22-2019, 05:18 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

Alright, how was should we explain an individual with $48 billion worth of wealth ($20 billion in GURPS $) at TL8? According to the non-investment argument, they should have Multimillionaire 4 and 80% if their wealth ($38.4 billion) would be non-adventuring investments, property, etc.. The issue with that argument is that even Independent Income 1 generates $480 million a month ($5.76 billion/year). Even if all of their non-adventuring wealth was investments, they would require an annual ROI of 15% to account for their income, which is much more unrealistic than having large amounts of stocks that they are loathe to part with. They would also end up making $6.24 billion per month ($78.4 billion per year) at any job of their income level, which does not happen in real life. Independent Income is just an easier, simpler, and arguably more relatistic representation of wealthy people.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

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Alright, how was should we explain an individual with $48 billion worth of wealth ($20 billion in GURPS $) at TL8? According to the non-investment argument, they should have Multimillionaire 4 and 80% if their wealth ($38.4 billion) would be non-adventuring investments, property, etc.. The issue with that argument is that even Independent Income 1 generates $480 million a month ($5.76 billion/year). Even if all of their non-adventuring wealth was investments, they would require an annual ROI of 15% to account for their income, which is much more unrealistic than having large amounts of stocks that they are loathe to part with. They would also end up making $6.24 billion per month ($78.4 billion per year) at any job of their income level, which does not happen in real life. Independent Income is just an easier, simpler, and arguably more relatistic representation of wealthy people.
Remember, the 80% of their starting Wealth is abstracted. It's worth $38.4 billion if they need to liquidate it quickly to go on the run. Logically, this means that the nominal value, estimated by Forbes, would be higher. The difference isn't as extreme as with your 'Investment Wealth', but it's easy to believe that liquidating all immediately would yield only 20-50% of the 'real' value. Thus, while this is explicitly abstracted in GURPS, we can still rest easy that someone with Independent Income 1 is receiving a RoI that is fairly plausible. A higher level of Independent Income is possible for some Wealth levels and character types, but never represents ordinary investment income.

And it should be pretty obvious that in most campaign worlds, including ones based on modern Earth, Multimillionaire 4 Jobs do not exist. At a certain point, salaried employment tops out and higher Wealth levels do not magically create Jobs that do not exist in the setting. Even a Job that involves managing a character's Wealth probably tops out at a certain Wealth level, as at a certain point, it makes little difference to the income of someone ultra rich whether they are working themselves or have to pay a highly skilled professional to manage their assets.

Hence, at higher Wealth levels in realistic setting, the income would usually be similar whether the character works or not, and the 1 point value of Independent Income is for not having to work.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

Interesting thread on monsters as magicians, here. I'll see if I can contribute something relevant to the topic later today. Maybe a vamp. Or even a vampire.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

Vampire magic would be good. Some of the rituals fro. Path of Forms would be a natural fit for Vampies, as would some of the rituals from Path of Nature.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:08 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

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Interesting thread on monsters as magicians, here. I'll see if I can contribute something relevant to the topic later today. Maybe a vamp. Or even a vampire.
Thank you. Seriously, I look forward to it

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Vampire magic would be good. Some of the rituals fro. Path of Forms would be a natural fit for Vampies, as would some of the rituals from Path of Nature.
I should be very happy to see more posts that are actually relevant to the topic in this thread, rather than the more-than-a-dozen posts about the mechanics of finance in GURPS, which I would rather see either deleted due to not being relevant to the thread by any reasonable standard, or more preferably moved to a thread where they actually would be relevant.

I know I occasionally go off-topic myself in other peoples' threads, but this is pretty ridiculous, and I've been rightly called on that when I do.

EDIT: For clarification, I was literally shaking with rage while typing up parts of the above, induced by the irrelevant finance mechanics discussion (which made correcting typos more necessary than usual). Anastacios is decently well-off, and doesn't have to work. Since this has game effects, I threw in a couple of wealth-related advantages that seemed to fit well enough, and then stopped caring because the specific details are utterly unimportant to the character beyond the fact that he can afford stuff, and doesn't have to work, so he can focus on his insane hobby. If I didn't have to think about game effects, I would have just put something like 'he can afford stuff, and doesn't have to work' in the Notes section. In this context I. Do. Not. Care. About. The. Details. They are not important to the character. They are background so that I didn't have people asking things like 'how does he support himself?' - in other words, they were put there in the hope of avoiding a completely irrelevant discussion about money!

OK?


Much Later EDIT: Well, that edit was a bit over the top. If the derail gets moved, I'll probably just delete the struck-through section.
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

I've been working on a Count Dracula for this sort of setting (and the Grimoire settings, which mostly work similarly enough).

In the book, he is not harmed by sunlight, but is 'weaker' during the day (possibly limited to something like normal human strength, and maybe he can't use his other powers, and/or his Path/Book Adept is Night-Aspected), and supposedly difficult to kill or harm with 'normal' weapons (though he was killed with regular knives in the novel - did that take place after sunrise? he does seem to have been asleep for it in the novel, IIRC). Along with hypnotism (which I think he uses on Lucy and Mina), age alteration (he appears younger for a while after having fresh blood, possibly limited to human blood or youthful human blood), turning into a bat, wolf, or mist (and possibly dust, to fake his death), and lizard-climbing (possibly an effect of strength and Climbing skill rather than the Clinging power), there's this paragraph section from Bram Stoker's novel, which I'm going to break up for ease of analysis (my comments will be in parentheses):

*The nosferatu do not die like the bee when he sting once. He is only stronger, and being stronger, have yet more power to work evil. (Unaging and maybe some form of Unkillable, plus he's still able to learn, and grow in power)

*This vampire which is amongst us is of himself so strong in person as twenty men, (he has roughly ST 45, going by Basic Lift; Extra ST with Super-Effort and Night Only probably fits best; something built into his Embodied form, rather than something he needs rituals for)

*he is of cunning more than mortal, for his cunning be the growth of ages, (again, he can still learn, and has lots of skills, some at high level; possibly Talents also)

*he have still the aids of necromancy, which is, as his etymology imply, the divination by the dead, and all the dead that he can come nigh to are for him at command; (clearly ritual magic)

*he is brute, and more than brute; (If not referring to his personality, this probably means that he's highly durable, possibly including some form of Injury Tolerance built into his Embodied form)

*he is devil in callous, and the heart of him is not; (Say, it isn't that bad! explained in another thread how this is most likely Van Helsing's mangled English trying to convey 'he is a callous, heartless person')

*he can, within his range, direct the elements, the storm, the fog, the thunder; (he knows some rituals for that)

*he can command all the meaner things, the rat, and the owl, and the bat, the moth, and the fox, and the wolf, (probably also ritual magic)

*he can grow and become small; (Growth and Shrinking, and should be ritual magic rather than a power; alternatively, perhaps Van Helsing got this from a sheltered nun writing of her encounter with Dracula in such vague terms that this is actually an ability that even many mortal men have... in one area)

*and he can at times vanish and come unknown. (ritual magic, either Obscurity, teleportation, or both - or possibly something else)


Thinking about it, though, is he shown to have all these powers in the book? He clearly has some of them, but the only size-changing I recall him doing is shapeshifting, which could also cover his being able to 'vanish and come unknown.'

In terms of rituals, he makes Mina drink his blood in the book and some of the movies, and this gives her a psychic link with him, allowing Van Helsing et al to track the vampire. For this sort of setting, I interpret that as part of an Embody ritual that has extra steps and requirements, which make it more powerful, but also add difficulties. His various weaknesses (dread of garlic & holy symbols, no reflection, dependency on the soil of his homeland) could also be the result of the ritual he used (limitations that he accepted as the price of power, or that he couldn't find a way to do avoid or remove, or that he didn't know about until too late), or come from curses placed on him by others, or might be long-term results of critical failures, or some combination thereof. On the other hand, the lack of reflection could mean that he is not Embodied at all, but rather a powerful evil spirit capable of long-term corporeal manifestation; that's a better fit for other threads, though.


Thoughts?
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

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Leyden Jars (Energy Reserve (Magic); Breakable machine, DR1, -25%; SM0, -25%; Can Be Stolen by ST, -30%; Special Recharge (Electricity), -70%) 20 [12]
Path/Book Adept (Time; Requires electricity, -20%) 1 [8]
Magery (Storm-Aspected, -60%) 3 [12]

Thoughts?
If you're doing the movie characters, the electrical aspects fit; the book is less explicit. But by the time Mary Shelley wrote, the Voltaic pile was already well known (it was invented in 1800); Humphrey Davy's arc light (1810) was powered by a 2000-cell pile, which would have been quite high voltage. That could have been a more reliable source of magical energy. See GURPS High-Tech: Electricity and Electronics, pp. 16 and 20.

There was a novel of that era that DID use electricity to reanimate the dead: The Mummy, published anonymously in 1827, written by Jane Webb.
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:39 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

In my current fantasy campaign, one of the NPCs, a selkie, owns a sealskin garment that he can use to transform himself into a seal. It's not an enchanted item, but a material element in a ritual that uses the Path of Form, called Skinchange, which you can find in GURPS Thaumatology.
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Old 05-26-2021, 12:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Path/Book Magic] Monsters as Magicians... or vice versa

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If you're doing the movie characters, the electrical aspects fit; the book is less explicit. But by the time Mary Shelley wrote, the Voltaic pile was already well known (it was invented in 1800); Humphrey Davy's arc light (1810) was powered by a 2000-cell pile, which would have been quite high voltage. That could have been a more reliable source of magical energy. See GURPS High-Tech: Electricity and Electronics, pp. 16 and 20.
I believe I used the Leyden jars for the lightning and the Benjamin Franklin reference. A voltaic pile would be more reliable, but not as mystically significant (not that Dr. Frankenstein would be consciously aware of that). Of course, the Leyden jars are mentioned as not only being charged by lightning, so voltaic piles could be involved.

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There was a novel of that era that DID use electricity to reanimate the dead: The Mummy, published anonymously in 1827, written by Jane Webb.
I think there was a movie based on that, probably a silent film, circa 1911. *goes to check* OK, not exactly: there was a lost film with about the same title, but it was rather different from the book, which was an early science fiction novel set in the twenty-second century. Still, one or both might have inspired the use of electricity in the Frankenstein films.
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