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Old 07-09-2016, 04:15 PM   #11
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post

You'll need to connect the dots here. My copy of Ultra-Tech for 4e indicates a monthly maintenance interval. If it's missed, HT is reduced and there's one roll to see if something goes wrong. I don't see anything suggesting that another such roll is necessary until the next maintenance period is missed, which would be another month on. Certainly, any cybernetic device can critically fail if maintenance is missed, but I don't see where you're getting a week from.
Just a passing note: I'm looking to use a different build for "cybernetic" advantages per GURPS rules as written, and started to look into GURPS POWERS for more information on pricing limitations etc on advantages. Page 116 of GURPS POWERS:

"Modifiers: Most advantages that list a Cybernetic or Digital special modifier require that modifier in cyberpunk. Use Temporary Disadvantage, Electrical (-20%) to represent vulnerability to electrical overload. Large implants – notably bionic limbs – often have Temporary Disadvantage, Maintenance, 1 person, Weekly (-5%). Experimental implants tend to be Unreliable."


So, even GURPS POWERS indicates that most limbs have a maintenance interval of 1 week instead of 1 month. As I shall allude to in my next post, the easiest way to handle this issue is to remove the Requires Maintenance disadvantage entirely. The maintenance intervals don't make much sense for some things. For instance, a cybernetic heart - how does one provide maintenance on it one week after it is installed? Even a maintenance interval of 1 month, would necessitate invasive surgery 12 times a year if that heart has to be taken out or gotten access to in order to do maintenance.

Now for the fun part...

Let's assume we have a character with the following:

Bionic Eye x2
Bionic Arm x2
Bionic Limb x2
Subdermal Armor
Bionic Vital Organs (lungs, heart, and stomach)
Boosted Reflex

He didn't start out that way, but due to game play, he's had parts replaced over time due to costly victories over many enemies.

Exactly how much time is required to handle the maintenance for the bionics for each and every one of the listings?

Is it one hour per eye, or one hour for both eyes (either 2 hours or 1 hour)? Is it one hour per limb, or one hour per pair of limbs (either 4 hours or 2 hours)?

Just curious as to how you or anyone else would rule on this. As it is, most technicians or mechanics tend to charge by the hour. Getting your cybernetics maintained is generally going to cost the player character not only the time required to do the maintenance, but also money. Is this cost subsumed in the cost of living for a character, or is it extra?

Just curious to see what others think.
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Old 07-09-2016, 04:29 PM   #12
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
So cyberlinb serial number 1001 going into a HT 10 person has a HT 10, but the same cyberlinb model with serial 1002 placed on a man with a HT 15, will have a HT of 15 despite the two limbs be manufactured to be the same from an assembly line?
Yes. Also it will be stronger on a person with ST 15 than it will be on a ST 10 person.
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Old 07-09-2016, 04:46 PM   #13
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

One of the ways to handle my dis-satisfaction with the maintenance rules within GURPS is to simply remove the Maintenance disadvantage entirely from the package. Depending on which form it was granted in the ULTRATECH book, means that the cost for the cybernetic enhancement goes up a few points.

I've also taken a hard look at the rules within GURPS CHARACTERS as well as GURPS POWERS with an eye towards building my own packages for cybernetic devices. I'm not too happy with what I'm seeing in GURPS ULTRATECH, and the rules as written make the cybernetic devices that require weekly maintenance rolls somewhat problematic. If one in 216 cybernetic devices fail utterly after missing a maintenance interval - then there is enough wrong with the device that it would be unmarketable within the reality of human interaction. Today, one can purchase an all electric car - but those vehicles selling at $30,000 per unit, aren't the kind of vehicle that people who can barely afford to purchase a car worth 20,000 will buy. Thus, it would seem that cybernetic limbs might not be fiscally viable or even usable by most people. Why?

Think about it. When your car goes into the shop, the mechanic will take it on a lift, and attempt to find out what (if anything) is wrong with the car. There is a fee associated with simply placing it on the lift. Then, if the task takes more than a given amount of time, the mechanic will charge you parts and LABOR (ie time taken to do the task). The temporary disadvantage maintenance results in the requirement that a person spend 1 hour per Device, per week - in order to avoid having to roll vs HT for the device to fail to function properly. So, let's be nice and assume that the cybernetic maintenance for limbs is 1 hour per pair, and that the maintenance is 1 hour per pair of eyes, etc. A person with Cybernetic vitals, cybernetic eyes, cybernetic arms, and cybernetic legs, will be on the hook for four hours of maintenance per week. At say, $20 per hour of labor, plus a stock fee per "session" to use the maintenance facaility - say, $50 - maintenance costs will be equal to 52 x 50 plus 52 x 20 x units per year. So, in the example above, our cybernetic ladened indivisual will be spending something like $6,760 per year just to keep operational.

Nothing in the RULES specifies the costs involved, and nothing even suggests that the maintenance WILL cost anything, but the question arises in my mind "How does one do maintenance on a boosted heart inside of a person's chest?"

In the end, I think it boils down to the fact that I'm going to have to go into the GURPS CHARACTERS book as well as GURPS POWERS book, and rebuild some of the advantages to suit my desires and tastes. Something as simple as building cybernetic eyes that require a 14 or less to function properly is superior to having to use the current rules for "Requires Maintenance" per GURPS ULTRATECH or GURPS POWERS as written. So, just remove that disadvantage from the cost calculation, and presto, problem solved. Unfortunately, it results in some extra work on my part. :(
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:44 PM   #14
hal
 
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Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

After digging through the GURPS CAMPAIGNS book, I stumbled across this...


Health (HT): This rates the likelihood the object will break under stress or abuse. Most machines and similar artifacts in good repair are HT 10. Swords, tables, shields, and other solid, Homogenous objects are HT 12.
Cheap, temperamental, or poorly maintained items get -1 to -3 to HT; well-made or rugged ones get +1 or +2. Characters with the Machine meta-trait use their HT score.

So it looks as though Standard Cybernetic parts might have a HT of 10, poorly maintained items will suffer a -1 penalty per period of failed maintenance, and well made or rugged ones might get a HT of 11 or even HT 12 if ruggedized. That's my take on it based on that particular bit of writing from page 483 of GURPS CAMPAIGNS.
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:47 PM   #15
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Sample new Bionic eyes using the rules in GURPS CHARACTERS as written without using some of the other things established in GURPS ULTRATECH.

Michura Eyes Mark VI:

The Michura Mark 6 eyes are the latest in Michura eye line of products. They combine the ultra miniaturization of light intensification capabilities with the ability to focus optical enhancers for close up examination of the visual field. With anti-glare capabilities, these eyes are cutting edge after nearly 15 years of research and development.

Capabilities:
Normal Color Vision in the average Human range 0 points
Telescopic Vision, No targeting, x 2 (10 points -60% no targeting takes time, 1 second -10)
Night Vision 6 levels (6 points - don't know how to adjust for color blind for this advantage, thoughts?)
Protected Sense Vision (5 points)

Total points thus far: 0 + 3 + 6 + 5 = 14 points

This is for TWO such eyes. I'm guessing that the disadvantage for "one eye" would come into play when trying to use the extra functionality if the other eye is natural, and using for instance, the night vision function or the Telescopic vision function - but NOT when using natural vision from both eyes at the same time).

Now for the other modifiers...

Breakable: -25%
Repairable: -5% (it requires considerable expense in the form of parts and labor for an expensive item. Could have gone as high as 15% but I opted for -5% just to be conservative)
Can be stolen: -5% (requires force to remove a person's eyes, and will not work immediately for the thief).

Net modifier: -35 overall. Call it a total of 10 points (9.1 but going to whole number).

So, if HT starts at 10 for the most part, or well made parts might start at 11, this thing would have a HT of 10 for most normal production. One might suggest as a house rule, that cheaply made items might start at 9, 8 or even 7 depending on how cheaply the item is made.

Thoughts? Does this seem feasible? Are there other ways to price this more realistically? Just looking to find an alternative to what is in GURPS ULTRATECH...
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Old 07-09-2016, 05:57 PM   #16
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

For what it is worth, it is my hope that once I get a set of cybernetic devices plotted out, that I can create my own "CYBERPUNK" data file to include these. Anyone who would want to have such a file, and contributes to this thread with items of their own. It would be interesting for example, to find ways to stat the variable HT in some way shape or form - and would also be nice to see different "models" of eyes. Having an infrared capable pair of eyes might be useful in some instances.

In addition, somewhere along the way, I may want to try and take a stab at a GURPS DEUS EX approach to various concepts. Having to take a drug in order to stave off rejection issues might prove to be an interesting idea. For instance, having to make a HT saving roll when the cybernetics are first fitted to the body determines whether or not the neuroprozene (sp?) is required or not. Perhaps one needs to make their HT saving roll by 3 when first (ever) fitted with a cybernetic device determines how well the body can handle the invasiveness of the implant. For now, I'm just playing with concepts to see what I can come up with. :)
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Old 07-09-2016, 07:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Gurps Bio-Tech has rules for transplants and rolls for rejection. It also has the perk: Low Rejection Threshold that negates the roll with the requirements that they not have Resistance to Disease or Ht above 12.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:55 PM   #18
dfinlay
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
If one in 216 cybernetic devices fail utterly after missing a maintenance interval - then there is enough wrong with the device that it would be unmarketable within the reality of human interaction.
Except that's not how critical failures work in GURPS. In almost any part of GURPS, you can't apply crit fail chances as realistic statistics in a simulative sense. If you did, there would be a hell of a lot more instances of almost any piece of technology breaking down, of repair people breaking things instead of fixing them, of chemistry resulting in explosions, of professional climbers falling off simple cliffs, etc. The reasons why crit fail chances are higher than statistics would indicate all over GURPS are three fold.
  1. GURPS has limited resolution. When using a 3d6 system, you can't have probabilities under 1/216. Even if you could, crit fails should still be larger because:
  2. Extreme events tend to be narratively interesting. They drive story forward, so they are made somewhat more likely. Even if you are a pure simulationist, though, we still have that
  3. Higher crit fail chances account for all the times you don't roll. Hundreds and thousands of tasks are performed in your characters' lives that you don't bother rolling for because they weren't likely to be interesting. Either they happened off-screen or they were glossed over because, who really wants to roll DX+15 every time you walk up some stairs? Any of these could, in a realistic world, generate crit fails and many (not all, but a decent number) of those crit fails would be interesting and worth focusing the scene on. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which ones those will be in advance, so we fudge things and make them on-stage screw-ups by increasing the chance of a screw-up on-stage. That way, your character gets a more reasonable amount of screw-ups during their career. This idea also applies to crit successes.

If you do like that, you can try to house-rule every case of it all throughout GURPS, but that will be a very difficult task, because you'll be working from very different assumptions to GURPS, and because of point 1, above.

That said, the (really, any) maintenance rules seem like they might be intended for the sort of setting where maintenance and breakdowns of cybernetics are intended to be something the players contend with, perhaps because they tie into the thematic chords of desperation, poverty, dehumanization and corporate corner-cutting (ie, a fairly standard cyberpunk game). If you aren't running a game where maintainance and breakdown of cybernetics is something you want your players to engage with and explore, simply don't use maintanance rules at all.

Last edited by dfinlay; 07-09-2016 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:57 PM   #19
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Gurps Bio-Tech has rules for transplants and rolls for rejection. It also has the perk: Low Rejection Threshold that negates the roll with the requirements that they not have Resistance to Disease or Ht above 12.
Thanks for that Heads up, I'll have to hunt that one down. :)
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Old 07-10-2016, 12:04 AM   #20
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Originally Posted by dfinlay View Post
Except that's not how critical failures work in GURPS. In almost any part of GURPS, you can't apply crit fail chances as realistic statistics in a simulative sense. If you did, there would be a hell of a lot more instances of almost any piece of technology breaking down, of repair people breaking things instead of fixing them, of chemistry resulting in explosions, of professional climbers falling off simple cliffs, etc. The reasons why crit fail chances are higher than statistics would indicate all over GURPS are three fold.
  1. GURPS has limited resolution. When using a 3d6 system, you can't have probabilities under 1/216. Even if you could, crit fails should still be larger because:
  2. Extreme events tend to be narratively interesting. They drive story forward, so they are made somewhat more likely. Even if you are a pure simulationist, though, we still have that
  3. Higher crit fail chances account for all the times you don't roll. Hundreds and thousands of tasks are performed in your characters' lives that you don't bother rolling for because they weren't likely to be interesting. Either they happened off-screen or they were glossed over because, who really wants to roll DX+15 every time you walk up some stairs? Any of these could, in a realistic world, generate crit fails and many (not all, but a decent number) of those crit fails would be interesting and worth focusing the scene on. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which ones those will be in advance, so we fudge things and make them on-stage screw-ups by increasing the chance of a screw-up on-stage. That way, your character gets a more reasonable amount of screw-ups during their career. This idea also applies to crit successes.

If you do like that, you can try to house-rule every case of it all throughout GURPS, but that will be a very difficult task, because you'll be working from very different assumptions to GURPS, and because of point 1, above.

That said, the (really, any) maintenance rules seem like they might be intended for the sort of setting where maintenance and breakdowns of cybernetics are intended to be something the players contend with, perhaps because they tie into the thematic chords of desperation, poverty, dehumanization and corporate corner-cutting (ie, a fairly standard cyberpunk game). If you aren't running a game where maintainance and breakdown of cybernetics is something you want your players to engage with and explore, simply don't use maintanance rules at all.
The thing to keep in mind is that GURPS rules do try to take into account certain aspects of critical failures and statistics. For example, when flying a plane and having to make a roll against one's skill, the first roll determines if there is an issue, while the second roll to avoid the issue comes into play to further mitigate the statistics of rolling a failure or crit failure (Read GURPS TRAVELLER to see of what I mean). Where robotics or programs are concerned, when a crit failure comes up, there is no second roll to see if the crit failure is averted.

As for simulating the "feel" for desperation for those with cybernetics, the idea that one needs maintenance as a service would appear that the whammy on the player character becomes more severe.

1) lost time for handling maintenance (time to travel to the clinic, time to have the procedure done, any waiting time in the waiting room gets added to this.
2) Lost income due to fees assessed by those providing the service.
3) Lost functionality in the event of a missed maintenance roll

So, if a character has any cybernetic replacements, their cost of living requirements just went up - and that's not something that "characters living in a poor lifestyle" can afford. <shrug>

Overall? Being able to work out alternatives to what was written in the book seems about the best route for ME to go. A "show all work" approach means two things in the long run...

People can view the work and use it for themselves and modify it for their own purposes if they so desire

People can see where I'm making a mistake and correct it
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