"Backwards" In Nomine - Page 3

Jason · 12-07-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Well, Lust can still not be able to care for humans because, you see, Heaven uses caring. It's a trap. Care for humans, and you've got hostages. Care for humans, and you've got these bonds that can be traced (pesky Mercurian! Andrea should know; she used to be one). Don't let humans get killed, but don't get too close. Yeah, it sucks, but that's God's Symphony for you; care too much, and the Malakim will come for your mortal friends with knives, and they... they won't care at all how much they hurt those fragile humans, just to get you to give up and be destroyed.

As tempted as I am to keep throwing out dissonance conditions in a weak attempt to trick you into writing a semi-official Backwards In Nomine rule set, I think I may just concede that you are better at thinking these things through than I am. Well done.

Archangel Beth · 12-07-2009, 05:17 PM

Oh, go ahead and keep throwing things at me! Sometimes I don't think stuff through until I need to. *beth does shiftyeyes*

Save up the tidbits and maybe I can sucker the webmaster into updating the INC with it. *beth looks sneaky-hopeful*

Jason · 12-08-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Oh, go ahead and keep throwing things at me! Sometimes I don't think stuff through until I need to. *beth does shiftyeyes*

Save up the tidbits and maybe I can sucker the webmaster into updating the INC with it. *beth looks sneaky-hopeful*

Heck, I'm game if you are.

Well, Balseraphs are pretty easy to handle; the whole "truth is entirely subjective" thing really isn't any worse than grad students on a postmodernism kick. Djinn are pretty well covered by what you suggest for how to interpret Lust. Calabim are easy to explain according to anarchy, I think. Lilim aren't really that bad, all things considered. And you described Shedim fine. So:

How do you reconcile Habbalah still thinking of themselves as angels? I suppose they could gift people with happy emotions, but I'm not sure how many would. Perhaps the urge to punish really isn't that different from what David endorses, but I wonder what thinking yourself to be like an angel would imply in a setting in which angels are "the bad guys."

And, how do you reconcile Impudites' Essence stealing ability as somehow "for the good" of any cause but their own?

And finally, I'd suggested a modification of the Pachadim dissonance condition for the sake of convenience in my own game, but how might we see their commitment to "predatory" relationships as actually a good thing? Why can't they stick around and be friends with someone who resisted their resonance, someone they respect?

As for Princes:

I could see Kobal's dissonance condition as almost beneficent with some rewording, but it specifies worsening someone's condition as written, not just playing mean-spirited jokes. Thoughts?

Once you figure out that one, Mammon's dissonance condition should be easy enough...

And finally, any thoughts on Saminga? I guess if you believe there's something actual beneficial about death itself, the inability to encourage life might be seen as acceptable. (The Euthanatos tradition from Mage: The Ascension comes to mind.)

These are the resonances and dissonance conditions that give me the most trouble when trying to conceptualize backwards In Nomine, personally, but I welcome anyone to chime in with others — and I welcome you to throw in some bonus ones as they occur to you, of course, Beth!

I'll stop by again with problematic Band attunements sometime when I don't have a stack of papers to finish grading...

robkelk · 12-09-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

And finally, any thoughts on Saminga? I guess if you believe there's something actual beneficial about death itself, the inability to encourage life might be seen as acceptable. (The Euthanatos tradition from Mage: The Ascension comes to mind.)

I think I can field this one...

It's well-known that all humans have a Destiny and a Fate, although demons would argue that the terms have been reversed. Once a human has accomplished what the "halos" call his Fate, then that human won't end up stuck in Heaven after death... but if he accomplishes his Destiny as well, then he goes back for another try in another life instead. That's a waste of time, so Saminga's Servitors step in to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's a three-step process:

Humans reach their Fates,
Humans get helped to Hell by the Samingans,
Humans are kept safe from Heaven.

Edit: This means "kill them all, let Lucifer sort them out" is not a valid tactic for a Backwards Samingan. He has to work closely with Kronos' demons to make sure he's targeting the right humans.

Archangel Beth · 12-10-2009, 05:10 PM

Good one on Saminga there. He can still be kinda dumb, too...

So. Habbalah. Angels. Habbalah spring from one of the most constrained Choirs there is, forced to set their very Selves aside in order to serve the Deity, right? Except they get to think. And some of them start thinking about their orders. And wondering if this is really logic. And seeing what a raw deal the Lord's handing out to His slaves. Being a living tool, forever forbidden from taking part in this whole Earth thing that He made... There's just something wrong here.

So they break free, and realize that divinity, angelicness, isn't something that is truly conferred from outside. It's inherent -- Choir and Band? Arbitrary labels. Sophistry. They have removed themselves from the servitude of God, but that has not made them any less angels. (But yes, it is a painful addiction to ditch. It is a painful thing, to have to make one's own choices. No wonder their celestial forms reflect both their new-found individuality and self-harm that they resort to lest they be tempted to return to God's Servitude. They must not be weak, or the seductive addiction to lack of choice, lack of freedom, will doom them again, and doom all they care about.)

Habbalah would like to explain to all the other demons that they're angels, too -- but this confuses a lot of demons, who think that they're being accused of being spies for the enemy. Or else they get angry, thinking that the Habbalah mean they're not sufficiently severed from God's hivemind. Or any number of bad reactions. So most Habbalah just go, "Screw it" and don't bother with anything except that they are angels. They have always been angels. It's just that they're free-thinking ones (like all of you idiots...), and that's hard. But they're strong enough to bear it.

(Lilim are kind of weird to them, though. They're part human and all that. On the other hand, poking them with sticks is not recommended; their mom gets peeved. And they're obviously angel enough to be sucked into the heavenly hivemind via "redemption.")

Edit: And yeah, you're right -- just take their "make people strong, punish weakness" in a more Davidian view. They're just trying to push people out of their comfort zones, and away from being sheeple!

Archangel Beth · 12-10-2009, 05:19 PM

Impudites! Impudites get two powers: Essence acquisition and making people like them. Are these inherently more "evil" than the Kyriotate ability to possess people and waltz them into churches? Or possess someone's friends and family and explain how all the person needs is to throw away their free will and do what the local priest says? And how about those Judgment Kyrios, eh? They can do all kinds of things if their host isn't a toe-the-line kinda person.

So, Impudites resonate to friendship (just like Mercurians, cry the Habbalah, but we're moving on from them just now). They resonate to the ties that link two people together. They resonate to getting people to understand that, really, the Impudite just wants what's best for them! Or for humanity in general. Close 'nuff. They can get so spiritually close to people that they can treat other people's Essence reserves as their own! (Optional house rule for Backwards IN: Impudites can use their Essence-draining either way, giving Essence voluntarily to even mundane targets who normally can't receive Essence.) Does it handicap the individual human? Sometimes, yes. But sometimes you have to do an intervention (little i! little i!) to keep someone from doing something stupid to himself, right? And sometimes you need a little extra Essence to keep foiling the thugs of theocracy, aka angels. It's for the greater "good."

A responsible Impudite doesn't drain where he'll be caught, though -- not only is there the cumulative effect of Lack Of "Good Luck" on a given human, but those cunning angels can sometimes notice when there's a trend of minor (or not so minor) accidents happening in an area. Those clever Jeanites are very scary about that. They analyze the data and send investigative teams (scary, scary Kyriotates of Lightning!), and woe betide the Impudite who's been over-tapping the Essence resources in his area! (Mind, Kyriotates of Lightning are easy to spot with VapuTech glasses; look, the wall has Essence! RUN! Or blast it with a very high-power Song of EthAttraction!)

Archangel Beth · 12-10-2009, 05:24 PM

For resonances that apparently require worsening someone's condition -- is this entirely different from how canon Wind-angels work? They shake things up! They shift things around!

So. Dark Humor... You gotta laugh, or else you'll cry. Y SO SERIUS? It's just life, after all. It's not like you get out of it alive... Deflate dignity. Puncture the regimented expectations. Break the cubical cells!

Of course, you have to do this with smarts. If you're just doing it randomly, you're contributing to chaos, which is a start (remember, Heaven's all orderly), but you're just flailing around. You're not *effective*. You gotta pick your targets. Make the *right people* look stupid. Disrupt authority. Tick off angels.

(Remind me of Mammon's dissonance conditions? I've got kid-distractions going on right now and can't easily look him up just now. >_> )

robkelk · 12-10-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

(Remind me of Mammon's dissonance conditions? I've got kid-distractions going on right now and can't easily look him up just now. >_> )

Appropriately enough for Servitors of Greed, they may not be generous. Trading (in unequal trades where they come out on top), loans, and bribery are all okay; actually giving something away, "even the time of day", is Dissonant.

Archangel Beth · 12-11-2009, 02:33 PM

Ah, thank you. Well, then, that's relatively workable. First, adjust the meaning of the Word of Greed slightly to something that encourages striving. Reaching for what you don't have. "A creature's reach should exceed its grasp" and all that.

Now, the deals, for IN Backwards, don't have to leave the other person in a *bad* state. They just leave the Mammonite in a *better* one. (Much like deals with Lilith might, say...) This can be a case of canonDavidian mindset, in the financial realm. Or it might be a statement about worth... Oh, yes, there's the click. See, if you give something away, people don't value it anymore. Give away things, and they become worthless. Give away your efforts, your time, anything, and you're buying into Heaven's "the self is worthless; give everything to the collective" mindset. No wonder it's dissonant!

A GM should, mind, be lenient about unofficial deal type things. E.g., a Mammonite could, if asked the time, give it and immediately ask a counter-question, such as, "Where do you get your hair done?" or "what brand of tie is that?" or "nice shoes; where'd you get 'em?" Something that is, really, of more value than the mere time. Never know when you might need your hair done, or a new tie, or some good shoes, after all. Or when someone else might. The time? The time is a one-time value, practically worthless.

Rocket Man · 12-11-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

A GM should, mind, be lenient about unofficial deal type things. E.g., a Mammonite could, if asked the time, give it and immediately ask a counter-question, such as, "Where do you get your hair done?" or "what brand of tie is that?" or "nice shoes; where'd you get 'em?" Something that is, really, of more value than the mere time. Never know when you might need your hair done, or a new tie, or some good shoes, after all. Or when someone else might. The time? The time is a one-time value, practically worthless.

You know, that's a pretty useful interpretation even in a "Forwards" In Nomine campaign. It certainly gives the Greedyguts a little more flexibility and makes them a little harder to spot.

12-07-2009, 05:17 PM	#22
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: "Backwards" In Nomine Oh, go ahead and keep throwing things at me! Sometimes I don't think stuff through until I need to. beth does shiftyeyes Save up the tidbits and maybe I can sucker the webmaster into updating the INC with it. beth looks sneaky-hopeful __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)

12-10-2009, 05:10 PM	#25
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: "Backwards" In Nomine Good one on Saminga there. He can still be kinda dumb, too... So. Habbalah. Angels. Habbalah spring from one of the most constrained Choirs there is, forced to set their very Selves aside in order to serve the Deity, right? Except they get to think. And some of them start thinking about their orders. And wondering if this is really logic. And seeing what a raw deal the Lord's handing out to His slaves. Being a living tool, forever forbidden from taking part in this whole Earth thing that He made... There's just something wrong here. So they break free, and realize that divinity, angelicness, isn't something that is truly conferred from outside. It's inherent -- Choir and Band? Arbitrary labels. Sophistry. They have removed themselves from the servitude of God, but that has not made them any less angels. (But yes, it is a painful addiction to ditch. It is a painful thing, to have to make one's own choices. No wonder their celestial forms reflect both their new-found individuality and self-harm that they resort to lest they be tempted to return to God's Servitude. They must not be weak, or the seductive addiction to lack of choice, lack of freedom, will doom them again, and doom all they care about.) Habbalah would like to explain to all the other demons that they're angels, too -- but this confuses a lot of demons, who think that they're being accused of being spies for the enemy. Or else they get angry, thinking that the Habbalah mean they're not sufficiently severed from God's hivemind. Or any number of bad reactions. So most Habbalah just go, "Screw it" and don't bother with anything except that they are angels. They have always been angels. It's just that they're free-thinking ones (like all of you idiots...), and that's hard. But they're strong enough to bear it. (Lilim are kind of weird to them, though. They're part human and all that. On the other hand, poking them with sticks is not recommended; their mom gets peeved. And they're obviously angel enough to be sucked into the heavenly hivemind via "redemption.") Edit: And yeah, you're right -- just take their "make people strong, punish weakness" in a more Davidian view. They're just trying to push people out of their comfort zones, and away from being sheeple! __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)

12-10-2009, 05:19 PM	#26
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: "Backwards" In Nomine Impudites! Impudites get two powers: Essence acquisition and making people like them. Are these inherently more "evil" than the Kyriotate ability to possess people and waltz them into churches? Or possess someone's friends and family and explain how all the person needs is to throw away their free will and do what the local priest says? And how about those Judgment Kyrios, eh? They can do all kinds of things if their host isn't a toe-the-line kinda person. So, Impudites resonate to friendship (just like Mercurians, cry the Habbalah, but we're moving on from them just now). They resonate to the ties that link two people together. They resonate to getting people to understand that, really, the Impudite just wants what's best for them! Or for humanity in general. Close 'nuff. They can get so spiritually close to people that they can treat other people's Essence reserves as their own! (Optional house rule for Backwards IN: Impudites can use their Essence-draining either way, giving Essence voluntarily to even mundane targets who normally can't receive Essence.) Does it handicap the individual human? Sometimes, yes. But sometimes you have to do an intervention (little i! little i!) to keep someone from doing something stupid to himself, right? And sometimes you need a little extra Essence to keep foiling the thugs of theocracy, aka angels. It's for the greater "good." A responsible Impudite doesn't drain where he'll be caught, though -- not only is there the cumulative effect of Lack Of "Good Luck" on a given human, but those cunning angels can sometimes notice when there's a trend of minor (or not so minor) accidents happening in an area. Those clever Jeanites are very scary about that. They analyze the data and send investigative teams (scary, scary Kyriotates of Lightning!), and woe betide the Impudite who's been over-tapping the Essence resources in his area! (Mind, Kyriotates of Lightning are easy to spot with VapuTech glasses; look, the wall has Essence! RUN! Or blast it with a very high-power Song of EthAttraction!) __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)

12-10-2009, 05:24 PM	#27
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: "Backwards" In Nomine For resonances that apparently require worsening someone's condition -- is this entirely different from how canon Wind-angels work? They shake things up! They shift things around! So. Dark Humor... You gotta laugh, or else you'll cry. Y SO SERIUS? It's just life, after all. It's not like you get out of it alive... Deflate dignity. Puncture the regimented expectations. Break the cubical cells! Of course, you have to do this with smarts. If you're just doing it randomly, you're contributing to chaos, which is a start (remember, Heaven's all orderly), but you're just flailing around. You're not effective. You gotta pick your targets. Make the right people look stupid. Disrupt authority. Tick off angels. (Remind me of Mammon's dissonance conditions? I've got kid-distractions going on right now and can't easily look him up just now. >_> ) __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)

12-11-2009, 02:33 PM	#29
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: "Backwards" In Nomine Ah, thank you. Well, then, that's relatively workable. First, adjust the meaning of the Word of Greed slightly to something that encourages striving. Reaching for what you don't have. "A creature's reach should exceed its grasp" and all that. Now, the deals, for IN Backwards, don't have to leave the other person in a bad state. They just leave the Mammonite in a better one. (Much like deals with Lilith might, say...) This can be a case of canonDavidian mindset, in the financial realm. Or it might be a statement about worth... Oh, yes, there's the click. See, if you give something away, people don't value it anymore. Give away things, and they become worthless. Give away your efforts, your time, anything, and you're buying into Heaven's "the self is worthless; give everything to the collective" mindset. No wonder it's dissonant! A GM should, mind, be lenient about unofficial deal type things. E.g., a Mammonite could, if asked the time, give it and immediately ask a counter-question, such as, "Where do you get your hair done?" or "what brand of tie is that?" or "nice shoes; where'd you get 'em?" Something that is, really, of more value than the mere time. Never know when you might need your hair done, or a new tie, or some good shoes, after all. Or when someone else might. The time? The time is a one-time value, practically worthless. __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)