Newbie question

[trashsmasher]

I just read the 4e Gurps Lite pdf, and so far it sounds great (I have only played AD&D and D20 in the past).

The only thing that I don't think I'll be able to figure out is how to deal with players or monsters with high attribute scores. For example, the book says 15 or higher is "amazing", and 20 and above are god-like. Could anyone throw me a couple examples? Like what would the ST and DX be for a vampire? Another way of posing my question.....how much higher is a 24 vs a 17? I am having a hard time assigning attribute scores to supernatural creatures.

Along these same lines, is failure and success always possible (I read about rolling 3's, 4's, 17's, 18's)? For example if my player was fighting some really tough creature, like Dracula, would my player hit him with an 18 roll, even if Drac's dodge was waaaaay high? Maybe I just answered my own question.....I guess DR could still make their hit meaningless. I donno, I'm rambling now, lol.

Hopefully someone digs what I'm trying to ask.

Thanks in advance.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

I just read the 4e Gurps Lite pdf, and so far it sounds great (I have only played AD&D and D20 in the past).

Welcome! We're a friendly bunch, so feel free to keep asking questions!

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

The only thing that I don't think I'll be able to figure out is how to deal with players or monsters with high attribute scores. For example, the book says 15 or higher is "amazing", and 20 and above are god-like. Could anyone throw me a couple examples? Like what would the ST and DX be for a vampire? Another way of posing my question.....how much higher is a 24 vs a 17? I am having a hard time assigning attribute scores to supernatural creatures.

There's actually a Vampire template in Characters that says your average vampire has ST 16. Course, vampires in your game might be stronger or weaker, so it's up to you. ST is actually a pretty easy score to benchmark. A ST 17 person can one-hand lift 60 pounds with no real effort, while a ST 24 character can do the same with 115 lbs. As for other scores, well, there's no real hard and fast rule above 20 or so. Scores that high don't happen very often outside of ST.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

Along these same lines, is failure and success always possible (I read about rolling 3's, 4's, 17's, 18's)? For example if my player was fighting some really tough creature, like Dracula, would my player hit him with an 18 roll, even if Drac's dodge was waaaaay high? Maybe I just answered my own question.....I guess DR could still make their hit meaningless. I donno, I'm rambling now, lol.

Yeah, you can always get lucky, though your player would need to roll a 3 (low is good). That said, if your adjusted skill after modifiers is less than 3, you don't get to roll. So if you try to shoot an airplane flying overhead with a pistol while blindfolded, unless you're the biggest bad-*** in the history of the world you're probably not even gonna get to roll.

As for whether or not you hurt the count, well, there's DR, or lots of HP, or a couple other things. The important part is that you might be able to hit him 1 in 40 times, but he can hit you 39 in 40 times, and he only has to do so once.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

I just read the 4e Gurps Lite pdf, and so far it sounds great (I have only played AD&D and D20 in the past).

The only thing that I don't think I'll be able to figure out is how to deal with players or monsters with high attribute scores. For example, the book says 15 or higher is "amazing", and 20 and above are god-like. Could anyone throw me a couple examples? Like what would the ST and DX be for a vampire? Another way of posing my question.....how much higher is a 24 vs a 17? I am having a hard time assigning attribute scores to supernatural creatures.

Along these same lines, is failure and success always possible (I read about rolling 3's, 4's, 17's, 18's)? For example if my player was fighting some really tough creature, like Dracula, would my player hit him with an 18 roll, even if Drac's dodge was waaaaay high? Maybe I just answered my own question.....I guess DR could still make their hit meaningless. I donno, I'm rambling now, lol.

Hopefully someone digs what I'm trying to ask.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome!

Ability Scores
Like so much in GURPS, the ability score depends on how you treat it. If you think of ST as reflecting a real world value then estimating top weightlifter Strength using Basic Lift is not too difficult and you could wag 18-20 as being roughly the peak of human strength. (this does not account for the Lifting Skill which you will find in GURPS: Basic Set)

With 10 as the average of a healthy person fit for military service, and 20 being th epeak of human conditioning, AND the curve being bell shaped its easy to wag. Id probably scale it like this

10-12: Average person fresh from a rigorous military Boot Camp, lean and fit.

13-16: Honed proffesional Athlete suitable for (American) Football, Hockey, Boxing, MMA or other strength based contact sport.

16 + : Upper levels of Athlete and Weightlifters of the professional level.


Vampires
How strong a vampire is depends on how you build them, and eveyone in GURPS builds them differently because we all have so many different visions of what a vampire is. THink of the vampires from these sources

From Dusk Till Dawn
Brah Stokers: Dracula
Twilight
Angel/Buffy
Blade

You could easily and justifiably prescribe all different ST levels to each of those types of vampire, so the question isnt 'Whats the ST of a Vampire', but 'Whats the ST of the Vampire I have imagined.'


Other Questions
On dice rolls, If your skill is below a 3 you cant even try unless its a defense.

17 and 18's are bad, not good. In gurps, for everything other than reaction rolls and Damage, your trying to roll LOW.

If you critically succeed on an Attack roll, its an automatic hit. No defense allowed.

Yes DR can make a Hit (Your attach succeeds, defender fails to defend) irrelevant by absorbing the damage.

Use these Fora!
Finally, again let me say welcome to the last Gaming system you'll evr need to run ANYTHING and use these forums. Use them alot. Im amazed at the number of questions that have been answered here as well as the depth and breadth of the answers.

Quick tip

The search funciton here gives me fits. As an alternative, open up a google box and type in keyword site:forums.sjgames.com to search for results. For your vampire question, you might want to type in

vampire strength site:forums.sjgames.com


Nymdok

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

As for whether or not you hurt the count, well, there's DR, or lots of HP, or a couple other things. The important part is that you might be able to hit him 1 in 40 times, but he can hit you 39 in 40 times, and he only has to do so once.

Most of those times you've got a respectable chance to dodge, unless there's a lot of Deceptive Attack going on, so you're unlikely to be beaten down quite that relentlessly.

Not that that's going to save you when so severely outclassed.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

The only thing that I don't think I'll be able to figure out is how to deal with players or monsters with high attribute scores. For example, the book says 15 or higher is "amazing", and 20 and above are god-like. Could anyone throw me a couple examples? Like what would the ST and DX be for a vampire? Another way of posing my question.....how much higher is a 24 vs a 17? I am having a hard time assigning attribute scores to supernatural creatures.

A vampire might have any ST or DX, they vary hugely from setting to setting. Buffy style vampires probably range from 18 to 22 in terms of ST while Alucard from Hellsing probably has something around 30.

A person with ST 24 is almost exactly twice as strong as someone with ST 17.

For DX simple benchmark is that 14 is probably the beginning of realistic Olympic level and 17 the end of it.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

Along these same lines, is failure and success always possible (I read about rolling 3's, 4's, 17's, 18's)? For example if my player was fighting some really tough creature, like Dracula, would my player hit him with an 18 roll, even if Drac's dodge was waaaaay high? Maybe I just answered my own question.....I guess DR could still make their hit meaningless. I donno, I'm rambling now, lol.

Actually GURPS is a low roll system, a 3 or 4 is a critical hit. Those connect automatically, Dracula doesn't even get to Dodge.

[trashsmasher]

Thanks for all the quick replies! You guys are a nice bunch. It's SO rare not to get flamed when asking for help.

I'm sorry, maybe I shoudn't have used vampires as examples twice. LOL. I completely understand what you mean by the variance in vampires. I guess I really just meant "bad ***". :) I'll put my follow up questions in bullets for ease.

- So, if I'm reading all of you correctly, a 20 IS a possible ST score for a "real" human?

- Considering 24 is double the ST of 17, where would you guys benchmark some example supernatural characters/monsters? For example, could Hulk and Superman even be rated? I saw one thread where Superman's ST was like 10000. LOL. I guess I just am having a hard time setting some standards (above the 20) for superhuman players/monsters. I mean like, what would a reasonable DX for someone like a Weretiger be? (Assuming Weretigers ARE indeed very nimble in your world) Or maybe the strength of Bane (on Venom), ect. How about a giant? Just some standards or range examples would be VERY helpful. If I had some examples (approved by some seasoned GURPS players), I could figure out the rest. :) I just don't want to set my examples to high or low, ya know?

- And just to be clear.....if I'm understanding you all correctly........in my Dracula example (assuming Dracula is super tough), YES he would get hit if the attacker rolled a 3, but his DR could possibly make their attack irrelevant?

THANKS AGAIN for all your help. You guys are making my day!

[lexington]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- So, if I'm reading all of you correctly, a 20 IS a possible ST score for a "real" human?

Exactly where the boundaries are for realistic people is always a matter of some debate. It's probably allowable unless you're looking for really strict realism.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- Considering 24 is double the ST of 17, where would you guys benchmark some example supernatural characters/monsters? For example, could Hulk and Superman even be rated? I saw one thread where Superman's ST was like 10000.

Superman and The Hulk can't reasonably be stated using just GURPS Lite or Basic Set. Powers and Supers have rules for really extreme ST using Super Effort (Supers even estimates ST for people who can smash planets).

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

LOL. I guess I just am having a hard time setting some standards (above the 20) for superhuman players/monsters. I mean like, what would a reasonable DX for someone like a Weretiger be? (Assuming Weretigers ARE indeed very nimble in your world) Or maybe the strength of Bane (on Venom), ect. How about a giant? Just some standards or range examples would be VERY helpful. If I had some examples (approved by some seasoned GURPS players), I could figure out the rest. :) I just don't want to set my examples to high or low, ya know?

You're probably looking at 15, the point at which people would probably comment on it the first time they see it used ("Woah, that guy is really nimble!"). Rough rules for a the ST of a giant appear in Basic Set under the Growth advantage, Fantasy has more detail and the fan made Gulliver (bottom of that page) rules are nice as well.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- And just to be clear.....if I'm understanding you all correctly........in my Dracula example (assuming Dracula is super tough), YES he would get hit if the attacker rolled a 3, but his DR could possibly make their attack irrelevant?

Precisely, an especially lucky critical might even give enough extra punch to go right through.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- So, if I'm reading all of you correctly, a 20 IS a possible ST score for a "real" human?

Probably, yes, though they'd be exceptional.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- Considering 24 is double the ST of 17, where would you guys benchmark some example supernatural characters/monsters? For example, could Hulk and Superman even be rated? I saw one thread where Superman's ST was like 10000. LOL. I guess I just am having a hard time setting some standards (above the 20) for superhuman players/monsters. I mean like, what would a reasonable DX for someone like a Weretiger be? (Assuming Weretigers ARE indeed very nimble in your world) Or maybe the strength of Bane (on Venom), ect. How about a giant? Just some standards or range examples would be VERY helpful. If I had some examples (approved by some seasoned GURPS players), I could figure out the rest. :) I just don't want to set my examples to high or low, ya know?

Weretigers are if anything a worse example than vampires. I haven't a clue what your concept of a weretiger is.

For ST, unlike the other basic attributes, there's a very clear conversion from the stat to the capability, in terms of what you can lift. If you know what the character lifts, you know their ST.

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

- And just to be clear.....if I'm understanding you all correctly........in my Dracula example (assuming Dracula is super tough), YES he would get hit if the attacker rolled a 3, but his DR could possibly make their attack irrelevant?

A critical success on an attack makes it impossible to defend, so he would definitely be hit on a 3.

If Dracula has DR, certainly that might negate an attack. Most vampires don't bounce bullets off their faces, so other Advantages (found in the Basic Set) might be more appropriate. Many sorts of vampire would have Injury Tolerance (unliving) to make them not so much mind bullets or being run through with a sword, and likely Regeneration to quickly get over what damage they do take. There are other possibilities, as well.

Originally Posted by lexington

Superman and The Hulk can't reasonably be stated using just GURPS Lite or Basic Set. Powers and Supers have rules for really extreme ST using Super Effort (Supers even estimates ST for people who can smash planets).

It's not hard to figure out what ST they need, if you know their capabilities. The problem is that with only the Basic Set that much strength would cost a totally absurd number of points, making it impossible to build them as reasonable PCs.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

I'm sorry, maybe I shoudn't have used vampires as examples twice. LOL. I completely understand what you mean by the variance in vampires. I guess I really just meant "bad ***". :) I'll put my follow up questions in bullets for ease.

- So, if I'm reading all of you correctly, a 20 IS a possible ST score for a "real" human?

- Considering 24 is double the ST of 17, where would you guys benchmark some example supernatural characters/monsters? For example, could Hulk and Superman even be rated? I saw one thread where Superman's ST was like 10000. LOL. I guess I just am having a hard time setting some standards (above the 20) for superhuman players/monsters. I mean like, what would a reasonable DX for someone like a Weretiger be? (Assuming Weretigers ARE indeed very nimble in your world) Or maybe the strength of Bane (on Venom), ect. How about a giant? Just some standards or range examples would be VERY helpful. If I had some examples (approved by some seasoned GURPS players), I could figure out the rest. :) I just don't want to set my examples to high or low, ya know?

- And just to be clear.....if I'm understanding you all correctly........in my Dracula example (assuming Dracula is super tough), YES he would get hit if the attacker rolled a 3, but his DR could possibly make their attack irrelevant?

-Whats a BA and whats not is a question thats relative to the party's abilities. As a general statement look at how much damge the BA does versus the PCs DR and HP, that will give you a pretty good idea.

- Your going to get different answers on lifting as there is also a lifitng skill that can enhace your abilities somewhat. How much is strength and how much is knowing how to use your body effectively. Its analagous to people arguing whether Einstein had an extremely high IQ or had a Good IQ and a lot of points in Math and Physics skills.

-Thread on marvel charachters here http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=27116 that will probably work as a pretty good Scale

-Yes.

Nymdok

[PK]

Originally Posted by trashsmasher

Thanks for all the quick replies! You guys are a nice bunch. It's SO rare not to get flamed when asking for help.

Not here, it isn't. If anyone ever flames you for asking questions, click the little triangular "Report Post" button at the bottom left of their reply and let the mods know.

- So, if I'm reading all of you correctly, a 20 IS a possible ST score for a "real" human?

Absolutely. In fact, ST is the only score that's not necessarily limited to 20 in a realistic game. ST is kind of an "odd man out" when it comes to attributes, but suffice to say that a person with ST 22 is a bit more believable than a person with DX 19. Some of those "world's strongest men" types train their ST to a ridiculous degree.

- Considering 24 is double the ST of 17 where would you guys benchmark some example supernatural characters/monsters? For example, could Hulk and Superman even be rated? I saw one thread where Superman's ST was like 10000.

Characters like Hulk and Superman (both "strongest ever in their universes") would be in the 10,000 range as a minimum, yes. But that's because they're depicted as being able to throw mountain ranges, move planets, etc. Frankly, if you're new to GURPS, I'd recommend steering clear of superhero builds completely -- supers is one of the most complex genres to pull off in any game, including GURPS. Start smaller. :)

LOL. I guess I just am having a hard time setting some standards (above the 20) for superhuman players/monsters. I mean like, what would a reasonable DX for someone like a Weretiger be? (Assuming Weretigers ARE indeed very nimble in your world)

Probably between DX 16-19.

Or maybe the strength of Bane (on Venom), ect. How about a giant?

Bane depends on who's writing him (sometimes he throws people, sometimes he can throw cars) and the giant depends on size -- anywhere from ST 25 to ST 50 would be believable.

- And just to be clear.....if I'm understanding you all correctly........in my Dracula example (assuming Dracula is super tough), YES he would get hit if the attacker rolled a 3, but his DR could possibly make their attack irrelevant?

Yes, exactly. In GURPS Lite, if the attacker rolls a critical success, the defender doesn't get a defense roll. (And if you roll a 3, you also do maximum damage.) But that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to hurt your foe -- if he has DR 10 and your weapon does 1d+1 damage, for example, you could pound on him all day long and he'd just laugh at you. (GURPS Lite doesn't have hit locations, but when you upgrade to the full GURPS rules, they add the option of going for the eyes, at -9 to your attack roll. Really hard to do, but if you succeed, you ignore DR.)