Interpreting the Real World for IN

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Still it must be a little unnerving to have a lunatic with weapons as a "hat".

About two years ago when I was living a half hour from the DMZ, Kim Jong-Il was scarier than usual one week. One night that week our neighborhood got buzzed by a jet fighter--low enough to rattle the windows. Pretty scary at the time but I've got bragging rights forever. Not only have I had ghetto birds shine spotlights in my windows in California, but I've had my apartment buzzed by an F-16!

At least he's a reasonably smart lunatic.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

In reverse order:

He's got a point about being bogged down as the U.S. military's worst nightmare. I can't imagine any other military likes it either, but the U.S. is known for it (Vietnam and Afghanistan, to name two).

Exactly - the US keep getting involved in high-handed (and heavy-handed) wars they have no chance of winning, due to the lack of a clear defeatable enemy. As an institution, I think they are much closer to David (as you already mentioned) than to Janus.

But I'm sticking with Janus here. Authoritarian yes, certainly if you look at it from the outside. But having a few friends in the Corps (the actual Marines, not my fictional angelic squad) I've seen a terrific sense of humor there, seen how the Marines can forge a boy into a man (I know, that argues for David), and how fluid thinking and reliance on the guy next to you is a huge part of that culture. To say nothing of how the military changes society. They were arguably a bit behind on the gay thing, but by integrating blacks and immigrants in their ranks the U.S. military affected change in American society at large.

I'm not saying that individual soldiers can't do things that wouldn't make Janus happy - but any military institution as it is is hardly Janus-friendly. Even militaries that rely heavily on aircraft - Janus is a friend of robin hood characters, the rebel with a good cause, benevolent chaos and uninfringed movement - indeed, in a way, personal liberty. If you can equate that to dropping fire and death on people from the sky (which is what airforces do), interdicting land, air and water traffic and probably being responsible for the largest percentage of any armed force's "friendly fire", be my guest. Even when you're talking about liberation operations like Libya and Kosovo, the whole thing is more likely to be close to Michael (personal struggle for what is right) than Janus, don't you think?

Clearly, I'm an American and proud of it.

Yes, clearly :)
Which would most likely align you with... hmm, is it the angel or demon of Patriots? ^^

Hell is an authoritarian regime. On paper it's a Democratic Republic or some such doublespeak. In practice it's a snitchocracy where everyone knows you can't take a Demon Prince unless you are a Demon Prince, but that if you suck up the the big guys they might make your life slightly less miserable. Dog eat dog among your peers, but licking the hands of those clearly more powerful than you.
You don't know how hard it was to keep that PG rated.

No argument from me - which doesn't necessarily mean that a Prince of Hell won't support a democracy if it suits their agenda. I appreciate the PG-effort, I know the feeling ;)

Laurence and Dominic aren't much liked, are they? I think they supported the Church for its One True Faith, and that mindset requires blind obedience and submission. You're right though--these are not democratic qualities at all. Given the collective nature of angels I suspect that their government/culture resembles the Vatican's in its most ideal form--holy and inspired leadership guided by the Lord himself (though that last detail probably varies by campaign). Collective but obedient. They've probably found that humans don't do obedience so well, with Michael lobbying for individual dignity.

Agreed - but to be clear, the Vatican has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy...

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

The White Pope is elected, remember? At the other end of scale, so are (or were) Abbots and Abbesses; Bishops were for most of history. Non-elected positions are normally the result of secular nobles interfering and wanting positions to give to younger sons.
The oldest democracy in the world is the republic of San Marino - founded by Christian refugees 17 centuries ago.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Vatican is an Oligarchy, not a democracy. It's not like the actual believers elect the pope, or abbots etc. They are appointed, nominated or elected by the clergy, and typically only an elite part of that. And San Marino isn't much of an argument if you consider that the oldest democracies like Athens, Rome or the Isle of Man were heathen. Existence at the moment doesn't make it representative. Heaven is even more strict. Only the elect (high-ranking seraphs) have a voice, and even they are drowned out by the Superiors, who were, if anything, placed Oligarchic agreement, which is very different from democratic decision-making. The "angel on the streets" has no say whatsoever.

Yes, she's a strange one. The obvious question is - how many revolutions actually have made the countries better places?
And I suspect the answer is - Lilith doesn't care. She loses the Tether either way; whether to Heaven or Hell only matters if she gets some Geases out of it. She probably wouldn't want permanent Tethers anyway, as they'd tie her down. Ideally she'd be able to operate anywhere, whenever she felt like it; as it is being in Hell's peace faction she can operate anywhere from Hollywood to the Sudan.

I agree - though I think that the point about revolutions being a force for bad as well as good is not going to strengthen the idea of Heaven supporting democracies ^^

[Phoenix42]

And as an afterthought - since what this runs into in the long run is the question

Are Heaven or Hell specifically, and as a unit, in favour of/against Democracy as a matter of principle?

Which I for one think is a question well worth asking - a few questions might help elucidate the matter:

1. What connection can be drawn between the values of Heaven and Hell (altruism and selfishness, respectively) and democratic forms of government? What is fostered, what is not?

2. Do democracies further individual wellbeing as a whole, and if so, in whose interest is that?

3 a) If arguing for Heaven being in favour of democracy, how does one account for the fact that all abrahamic (heaven-inspired) religions, including the revised ones of Christianity and Islam, are based on rule by monarch or individual rather than elected representatives? Also, why have true democracies only begun to emerge in the last few centuries, when the war was clearly tilting in favour of Hell? And finally, why have democracies been the driving force behind secularisation?

3 b) If arguing for Heaven being against democracy, why is it that certain superiors like Novalis, Janus and Marc clearly thrive in and on libertarian environments?

4 a) If Hell is in favour of democracy, how does one account for the notion of tyrannical, or at the very least, egotistical selfishness present in most demons, as well as the clearly feudal structure of Hell?

4 b) If Hell is against democracy, why have Superiors like Fleurity, Nybbas and Haagenti (not to mention Lilith) thrived the more democratic nations have become? Also, the question of secularisation appears, as above.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

And as an afterthought - since what this runs into in the long run is the question

Are Heaven or Hell specifically, and as a unit, in favour of/against Democracy as a matter of principle?

I suspect that to the opposing forces in the War, the method of human government matters less than its motives and objects. A democracy that fostered a true community, where everyone looks out for their neighbor and no one loses sight of the "important things" would be viewed very favorably by Heaven. One that fosters a sense of every man for themselves and that you're free to get as much as you can grab would gratify many in Hell.

Similarly, one-man rule could give you a King David or a Josef Stalin.

Of course, a free society has one advantage for both sides: freedom of movement. And even the oddest celestial behavior may slip into the background if the neighbors think it's likely one more weirdo from Boulder/Austin/Prague/Copenhagen/whatever ...

Of course, on a cosmic scale you could argue that Heaven's ultimate aim is theocracy in the literal sense -- government directly by God, to be had after Armageddon is won. Whereas Hell claims to be aiming for benevolent anarchy (everyone free to do as they will) and is more likely building toward diabolic tyranny, again in the most literal sense.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

And as an afterthought - since what this runs into in the long run is the question

Are Heaven or Hell specifically, and as a unit, in favour of/against Democracy as a matter of principle?

No. Mainly because neither Heaven nor Hell act "as a unit."

Besides, "Lilith opposes all governments on principle." (CPG, pg 104)

[Matthias Wasser]

IMC Hell is broadly in favor of liberalism - defined roughly speaking as parliamentary democracy, capitalism, secularism, weak family systems, and Western imperialism - and Heaven is against it. But politics exists along much more than one dimension, obviously.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Novalis and Janus favor "libertarian" environments, certainly not lax ones; Flowers favors ones where everyone is nurtured, the Wind where things are rapidly changing and stale old structures are smashed to bits. Likewise I imagine that plenty of young Judges are interested in, say, quasi-anarchist applications of Islamic jurisprudence - anti-individualistic, but not particularly associated with stereotypic administrative structures. Mostly I see the Horde very happy with a very successful model and the Host scrambling to develop viable alternatives, inclusive of Red Button Pushing.

Infernal support for liberalism doesn't cause any sorts of logical problems with the prevailing "feudal" (which is patron-client, not sovereign-subject) state of affairs in Hell because 1) Superpowers have almost always been willing to support the next-best movement in proxy states, 2) liberalism is a fairly recent innovation, while Hell has been around forever, and 3) liberalism is perfectly consistent with mass enslavement and violent elite rule anyway. Of course there are going to be interesting cultural frictions between older and more recent residents of Hell, but it's not a fundamental problem. If either side couldn't appropriate and work with the new ideas developed generation after generation, it would be at a severe disadvantage.

[Andygal]

Trade of course prefers a strong capitalist bent in government, but not total lassie-faire capitalism, they would support just enough carefully chosen regulations to ensure fair play. Well the ideal world for Trade is one where regulations are unnecessary because businesses are socially responsible, but most of the ones on Earth-duty have probably figured out that things don't work that way on Earth so support regulations to encourage social responsibility.

[fwcain]

In keeping with the recent news...

"Thank you, Archangel Jean, but I'm really very happy right where I am. I've already started making some improvements here on my own."

"But there are so few others here in Eli's Cathedral. And so few resources to work with. Perhaps you did not understand what I'm willing to give you in My Halls--"

The recently arrived soul interrupted, "Nevertheless, I am quite content here."

Jean sighed. "As you wish, Mr. Jobs. Be well."

[naraht]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/us/cal...html?hpt=hp_t2

Two guys burglarized a Kraig Stockard's barn and took 30 CDs that they thought were blank and when they found that some of the CDs that they had stolen contained Child Porn, they contacted the local police who got a Warrant to take the Stockard's computer and external hard drives and on those the police found a lot more Child Porn. Note, Stockard had reported the theft of the CDs to the Police.

So, Janus, Dominic or Kobal?

[fwcain]

Originally Posted by naraht

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/us/cal...html?hpt=hp_t2

Two guys burglarized a Kraig Stockard's barn and took 30 CDs that they thought were blank and when they found that some of the CDs that they had stolen contained Child Porn, they contacted the local police who got a Warrant to take the Stockard's computer and external hard drives and on those the police found a lot more Child Porn.

So, Janus or Dominic?

Janus, hands down. Dominic would never permit burglary.