Rolling for turn sequence?

[ErhnamDJ]

What would you guys think of having an attribute that you roll against for your place in the turn sequence? I've never liked how someone with a higher speed can be certain they'll be going first without anyone else having a chance to move ahead of them.

This way, someone else could at least have a chance of going first. After all, people do get distracted or sometimes they're just a bit more sluggish than other times.

And my players like rolling for initiative in other game systems, so that's something they'd like being able to do in GURPS.


All I'm thinking you'd do is roll against this attribute and list out your margin of success or failure, then figure the turn sequence based on that. Highest margin first, then on down the line to the largest margin of failure.

[Kallatari]

I have a house rule of a Reaction statistic, which is equal to 2 x Basic Speed, and can be modified independently at a value of 5 points per +/-1.

I use it to determine initiative, and I also use it in "showdown contests" to determine who shoots first whenever there's a doubt, such as when two Wait maneuvers are triggered simultaneously and it's important to know who goes first.

It seems to work fine, and my players don't mind rolling. For me as GM, it goes well since I have a nice macro in my MapTools that rolls initiative for all the NPC at once and places them in the initiative sequence accordingly with a simple press of a button. Really handy when you have dozens of opponents.

If you don't have such a macro, keep in mind it can add extra time to start a combat. For that, I'd recommend only rolling for key NPC (like leaders), and then just averaging the result for all the minions and cannon fodder, otherwise it adds a lot of rolls that slows down the start of combat. Let everything rest on the player's results to determine if they go before or after the horde of opponents.

As a side note, I also house rule that if someone takes a Wait maneuver and then reacts, it changes his place in the initiative order to when he takes his action. If it cuts someone else off, he winds up being placed just before that person in the order.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

What would you guys think of having an attribute that you roll against for your place in the turn sequence? I've never liked how someone with a higher speed can be certain they'll be going first without anyone else having a chance to move ahead of them.

So long as turn order doesn't change after combat starts, it doesn't really matter how it was determined

This way, someone else could at least have a chance of going first. After all, people do get distracted or sometimes they're just a bit more sluggish than other times.

Being distracted or sluggish is better covered by the rules for surprise, since such things could easily cost seconds. Taking your turn first isn't really that important in GURPS since you can really only do one thing. If you Move then you have given your opponents the oppurtunity to make an Attack, while if you Attack and miss as far your opponent is concerned you may as have done a Do Nothing maneuver. Once everyone's had a few turns it's not even going to matter who went first. What's more important is who is taken out of combat first, which is generally the first one to fail their defense roll.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Being distracted or sluggish is better covered by the rules for surprise, since such things could easily cost seconds.

I don't mean things that distract you for seconds. I mean something that takes your attention away for much less than that. Small fractions of a second. It could be something as small as wondering whether you left the stove on or whether you remembered to feed the dog. Something like that. All I mean is that I think there would be some variance as to who is able to act first. If you took the same people and had them do a hundred fights, I don't think you would see the same person go first each time, no matter how fast they normally react.

Taking your turn first isn't really that important in GURPS since you can really only do one thing.

One thing can be pretty important. You can cast a fight-ending spell in one second, or you can draw and fire your pistol, or you can move for cover, or any number of other things.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I don't mean things that distract you for seconds. I mean something that takes your attention away for much less than that. Small fractions of a second. It could be something as small as wondering whether you left the stove on or whether you remembered to feed the dog. Something like that.

In the middle of a fight the last thing on your mind is this kind of minutia. Our brains are amazingly adapted to single minded task processing.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

All I mean is that I think there would be some variance as to who is able to act first. If you took the same people and had them do a hundred fights, I don't think you would see the same person go first each time, no matter how fast they normally react.

No, you wouldn't, because most real fights involve a great deal of waits, evaluates, AOA/AOD, and various other things that "mess" with perceived turn sequence.

Frankly, if you wanted a totally realistic turn sequence you might have a variable turn length based on chosen maneuver, type of weapon being used, etc. But outside of a CRPG keeping track of such a system would be insane.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

One thing can be pretty important. You can cast a fight-ending spell in one second, or you can draw and fire your pistol, or you can move for cover, or any number of other things.

The problem with using any type of random turn sequence is that it completely messes with the GURPS combat system. If the randomness is too small (say, 1d6) then the results won't matter very much anyway; if the randomness is great (say, 3d6 or maybe even 2d6) it allows combatants to make decisions based on how well they rolled on a given turn - "lets see, I rolled really crappy this turn, meaning I'm going last, so I'll All Out Attack and if I roll decently next turn I can take a defensive maneuver on my next turn and my opponent won't get a chance to respond to my lack of defenses." In GURPS taking two turns in a row without a response from your opponent is a *HUGE* tactical advantage. It also adds another die roll, and a huge extra step to combat which slows it down even more (and, for good and ill, GURPS combat already takes a long time).

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

In the middle of a fight the last thing on your mind is this kind of minutia. Our brains are amazingly adapted to single minded task processing.

I'm not talking about rolling in the middle of the fight. Only to figure the turn sequence at the beginning of the combat.

What I mean is that someone might go at a different place in the sequence depending on trivial factors that aren't worth messing with individually. I'd rather have them roll something and then come up with a post hoc explanation.

"You have a Turn Sequence Attribute of 13, so you're normally one of the first to act, but this time, since you rolled a 15, you must have been distracted just a little bit, allowing the wizard to get his spell off before you could stick your knife between his ribs."

Something like that.

[sn0wball]

In my last 3e games, I used 1d6+move (or 2d6+move with Combat Reflexes) for determining the turn sequence. It worked pretty well.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I'm not talking about rolling in the middle of the fight. Only to figure the turn sequence at the beginning of the combat.

The thing is, determining this by random roll makes no more sense. The person who acts first is the one who first decides to start the fight (everybody "before" him in the turn sequence apparently selected "Do Nothing" on their last turn). Other people who were expecting the fight to start about then would then get a turn (possibly in random order, but in order of speed, i.e. how fast they are at realizing now is the right moment, is just as reasonable). Then everybody might. The mechanics that try to capture this are Surprise and Partial Suprise, not the turn sequence.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Frankly, if you wanted a totally realistic turn sequence you might have a variable turn length based on chosen maneuver, type of weapon being used, etc. But outside of a CRPG keeping track of such a system would be insane.

We tried that in Sweden. It didn't work.

[gruundehn]

In the original Dragonquest system from SPI (I still have my copy) Action Points are used and each action uses a certain number of points such as 1 point to move 5 feet, etc. Each turn starts with the character with the highest number of Action Points and then it works down from there. AS you use AP your next action moves to that AP point. This allows for some variance in the turn order based upon the actions taken by each character and allows a more realistic interuption action.